No Modding Tools, Please!

Wow, it takes only 15 minutes to learn it? That is pretty amazing...

OK, sarcasm aside, XML is not so plain. Yes, it is readable, and I can understand and find a good amount of it for basic editing. Of course, there are many "functions" that I am clueless as to what they do (throughout all of the files) and when it comes to Schema, I am lost. Regardless of it's "ease" to learn, it is a pain to work through. All of the lines and cross referencing to make sure that file is edited so this will work and such. Give me a simple, user friendly editor any day of the week.

Yes, it only takes 15 minutes. I wrote a tutorial for some people in my forum. If you doubt me, read it. I included lots of pictures. ;)

You don't need to ever understand the schema unless you do SDK modding.

A prefect editor that is also easy to use is a pipe dream.


Dale, you beta'd CitiesXL... :(

Trust me, no great loss. It was easy to beta too. I had several extra keys I gave away.
 
Trust me, no great loss. It was easy to beta too. I had several extra keys I gave away.

Though I don't want to get off topic, I have to say that this was a bit of a let down. I was hoping that it would be what SimCity Society wasn't... a sequel to SimCity 4. The multiplayer feature killed it for me. By the time you go onto a "planet", all of the good spots were taken.

Here's to hoping for a true successor to SimCity 4.:beer:
 
Hopefully you aren't counting CitiesXL as on-time. They cut so many features to make the deadline.

Absolutely not. :lol:

Weren't you the one pushing the idea that it's all marketing speak? You can't say that, then try to use it as evidence too. ;)

Hey, you asked where it was mentioned, so I pointed to it. Whether it's true or not, we don't really know. Marketing speak or not, it's still evidence of where it was said there'd be modding tools. ;)
 
Yes, it only takes 15 minutes. I wrote a tutorial for some people in my forum. If you doubt me, read it. I included lots of pictures. ;)

You don't need to ever understand the schema unless you do SDK modding.

I think the point of the argument for a user-friendly editor is not how easy it is to read XML, but the complexity to add anything via XML.

Take a Civ. To add a Civ you need to edit:
- Civilization Info xml (to hold your new Civ)
- Leadhead Info xml (to hold your new leader)
- A_New_Text_File xml (to hold the Civopedia text and other texts)
- Art Defines xml (to hold the new icons and graphics)
- Sound Defines xml (to hold the new unit response sounds)
- Music Defines xml (to hold the new diplo music)
- Diplo Responses xml (to hold the link between stance and diplo text answers)
- Civ icon graphic (pretty pictures)
- Leader icon graphic (pretty pictures)
- Flag graphic (pretty pictures)

That's NOT 15 minutes. And that's not taking into consideration if you want to add a new UU and UB, which requires almost as much editing.

Would be MUCH easier (even for advanced modders) if we just had to fill in a GUI and then the editor put everything in the right spot.
 
I think the point of the argument for a user-friendly editor is not how easy it is to read XML, but the complexity to add anything via XML.

Take a Civ. To add a Civ you need to edit:
- Civilization Info xml (to hold your new Civ)
- Leadhead Info xml (to hold your new leader)
- A_New_Text_File xml (to hold the Civopedia text and other texts)
- Art Defines xml (to hold the new icons and graphics)
- Sound Defines xml (to hold the new unit response sounds)
- Music Defines xml (to hold the new diplo music)
- Diplo Responses xml (to hold the link between stance and diplo text answers)
- Civ icon graphic (pretty pictures)
- Leader icon graphic (pretty pictures)
- Flag graphic (pretty pictures)

That's NOT 15 minutes. And that's not taking into consideration if you want to add a new UU and UB, which requires almost as much editing.

Would be MUCH easier (even for advanced modders) if we just had to fill in a GUI and then the editor put everything in the right spot.

I'm willing to concede that much, but creating such an editor would be no simple task. That conflicts with one of your earlier statements, that editors are easy to make...
 
Actually they are easy. Using Visual Basic you could whip up a GUI on 4 or 5 tabs in a couple days, and writing out is easy. They are just ASCII files. Even easier just add in an XML extension into the Visual Basic project and feed the data into it and it'll auto generate the XML files correctly every time. Even have it all based on the schema, so if the schema changes (even if the GUI doesn't add the new tag) writing out will always work.
 
Yea, tools are not hard if you already have the infrastructure to read in and write out. The tool would have way more code to make the app look nice then it would to actually do the work of reading and writing the data.
 
Yes, it only takes 15 minutes.
I know a graphic artist who still has a hard time updating an xml file after 2 years, despite having both tools that do it automatically for him and the format being rather simple, so I think raw xml would indeed limit the abilities of several people.

Regarding map editors, I didn't feel civ IV to be that painful to use, but a separate map editor is probably not very expensive to create and Firaxis can use it internally so it's probably not wasted time.

I certainly hope that Civ V will come with at least as many modding tools as Civ IV when it was published, namely text files for editing the data (xml in civ IV, it would be nice if things weren't exploded in tens of files and files were separated in a better way - leaderhead mixes stuff that don't belong in one file imo) and a scripting language (python or whatever).

I also wonder whether the game engine Civ V uses comes with gaming tools they can redistribute. Tools for skinning characters or previewing 3d models for instance. If Firaxis could deliver these, it would cost them nothing but could help modders a lot.
 
I really doubt that making a rules/map/scenario editor with about the same functionality as the one in Civ III will take anything away from the features of the full game. It's not rocket science.

While I really enjoy a lot of the excellent mods for Civ IV I really miss an editor. I love creating small scenarios and maps for personal use in CivIII, and for that reason I still play III more than IV. Why can't we have both?
 
What would be common sense would be to incorporate the best features of civ 3 (e.g. better leaderheads, terrain editor) and 4 (e.g. SDK, Python/XML scripting and editing) and SMAC.
 
Actually they are easy. Using Visual Basic you could whip up a GUI on 4 or 5 tabs in a couple days, and writing out is easy. They are just ASCII files. Even easier just add in an XML extension into the Visual Basic project and feed the data into it and it'll auto generate the XML files correctly every time. Even have it all based on the schema, so if the schema changes (even if the GUI doesn't add the new tag) writing out will always work.

If it's so easy, why haven't you made an ultimate Civ4 XML editing tool then? ;)

I know a graphic artist who still has a hard time updating an xml file after 2 years, despite having both tools that do it automatically for him and the format being rather simple, so I think raw xml would indeed limit the abilities of several people.

And I know a 12 year old who can edit XML and has added units the the game. Anecdotal evidence is not useful.
 
Would everyone mind toning it down a bit?
 
I completely agree. With the exception of graphics, I can get everything done with Vim and the VC2003 compiler.
 
If it's so easy, why haven't you made an ultimate Civ4 XML editing tool then? ;)

Because I can think of 1000 things I'd much rather do. Just cuz it's easy doesn't mean I want to waste my time doing it. ;)



And I know a 12 year old who can edit XML and has added units the the game. Anecdotal evidence is not useful.

So what, I know a 65 year old who'd woop your ass in MP.
 
Actually they are easy. Using Visual Basic you could whip up a GUI on 4 or 5 tabs in a couple days, and writing out is easy. They are just ASCII files. Even easier just add in an XML extension into the Visual Basic project and feed the data into it and it'll auto generate the XML files correctly every time. Even have it all based on the schema, so if the schema changes (even if the GUI doesn't add the new tag) writing out will always work.

Why would I use Visual Basic?
 
If I was to write a "civilisation creator editor", I'd first make a "clone an existing civ" tool (that duplicated all of the entries for an existing civ).

Using the modular XML mods, this wouldn't be that hard, because you'd just be creating a new civ.

The hard part would be validation. I'd have to reverse engineer what kinds of validation that the game does.

As a guess -- getting a crappy civ cloner/editor out the door might take 8 hours. Getting a polished one out the door would take many, many weeks -- really, the sky is the limit (do you include tools to edit leaderheads? Edit the look of units? How about merely the position and actions of units? (for UUs) etc).

Remember, to make a civ, you need to be able to:
1> Build a unique unit or two. These units should look different, or at least have the option. So you need a full-fledged unit editor! Or, you need a unit library tool and a seperate editor that creates units.

2> Build a unique building or two. These buildings should look different, or at least have the option.

3> Build at least 1, if not more, leaders for that civ. The leaderheads should possibly look different -- so you need at the very least a leaderhead loader (ie, some kind of leaderhead library management tool).

4> Set the attitudes of that leader. Remember, we want intuitive -- so you need descriptions of what each and every parameter does!

5> Set the properties of each such leader.

6> Easy stuff, like lists of cities, starting techs, etc.

7> You need to add civopedia entries for the unique units, unique buildings, leaders and civilisations

8> Don't forget stuff like preferred religion -- and a full description of what it does! Player colour, initial civics (for mods!), sounds, etc.

9> Setting art type styles. For a good editor, you need the ability to load libraries of art types, and pick them, and ensure that all units for your civilisation have art (and buildings).

10> After you did all that, you'd still have to rely on the game engine itself to validate that the generated XML is valid for a given mod of Civ 4.

These aren't trivial tasks. You need to replicate most of the civ4 config engine so you can do things like "make a civilization compatible with mod X", which can include XML files of various styles, possibly modified schemas (!), modularly loaded XML files, etc.

Unless you roll the leaderhead/unit/building/civopedia editor into the system, you need to have some kind of library management utility. See, UUs for civilsations aren't valid in a mod until the civilisation is there -- and the civilisation isn't valid until the UU is there. This is a chicken and egg problem for validation.

If we want polish, then you need to solve that chicken and egg problem. Which basically means you have to have "civ4 fragment libraries", like UUs that don't have a civilisation attached (and maybe not a tech or a base unit), and a library management system for them so you can "grab one" and use it elsewhere.

At this point, we are talking about building a suite of tools. And as the people you are making it for are command-line phobic, they all have to be GUI tools. And as the people you are making it for are scared by errors that don't happen immediately, you have to make everything self-diagnosing, idiot-proof and/or generate errors immediately, and not deferred.

So sure, such a GUI toolkit could be done. But civ4's engine is so much more flexible than most other games of the kind that there is a lot of work that would need to be done in order to make it "good enough". And even after all of this, you'll remember my mention of "mods with different schemas" right?

Someone can mod civ4 so that leaders have some new property. How that new property works is not anything that your editor will have a clue about, because how it works will be described in python or C++ and not in XML.

And I went and glossed over the entire "oh, create a leaderhead editor". People making leaderheads tend to spend multiple 100$ on the program that edits the graphics files, or pirate it -- neither of which is practical for someone shipping an official game editor.

But don't trust me. Try it!
 
And I know a 12 year old who can edit XML and has added units the the game. Anecdotal evidence is not useful.
Sure. So I'll use the same argument as you, with as much ground, proof, etc. It takes a lot more than 15 minutes to learn xml. Voilà. You based your claim upon nothing. You gave anecdotal evidence that you had made a website about learning it in 15 minutes, but it's anecdotal, so it's not useful. I could of course point you towards books about xml which you can't read in 15 minutes, but you wouldn't mind.
Personally, I think xml is extremely simple, but I know some people don't. I have some teaching experience, by the way. I doubt you have any given your age.
It's also pretty easy to make mistakes when editing xml files, particularly when they are as ridiculously big as those of Civ IV (all those mandatory fields that are never filled with any value so they only bloat the file to no avail).
 
Thank you Yakk. Making a huge suite of tools like that would take FOREVER! I'm glad someone else sees the light. ;)
 
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