"No prisoners" orders and Waffen SS, WW2

[Case]

Interesting to note that the Dachau incident was neither ordered by the commanding officer nor approved of by the American Army.

Exactly. Which makes it totally unlike the German policy of deliberetly starving or working to death hundreds of thousands of Soviet POWs.

 

[nonconformist]

Sorry, the photo actually was at Dachau, but I'm not sure if it was a photo of the massacre.

 

[Xanikk999]

Oddly enough. The thought of allied war crimes has never reached my mind before reading this thread.

I have never heard any mention of it in all my years of school. But i have heard about the nuremburg trials.

Amazing that they tried to keep this a secret...

 

[privatehudson]

Who's "they"?

 

[Zardnaar]

I read about the Dachau massacre years ago. DOnt think it was ever a secret. Hands up if you care what happens to the SS?

 

[CruddyLeper]

Hands up if you care what happens to the SS?

The base of the problem is, Himmler's various organisations for terror control included the Waffen SS... who weren't actually used in the final solution, concentration camps, etc. Many of the Waffen SS did commit war crimes. BUT NOT ALL.

I shed no tears for criminals. But it is wrong to believe that Waffen SS troops people were guilty by reason of association. It is wrong to condemn them en masse. Just as wrong, for instance, as condemning all of the WW2 US Marine Corps for the practice of boiling up Japanese heads for the skulls as war souvenirs. Not all of them did that. But many did.

As for "secret cover up" etc, the details are there. You won't find most of them on the internet though. You won't see it on the History Channel.

I wish all the veterans of both sides the very best. Once they have passed away, then perhaps the whole story might become acceptable as public fact.

I'm in no rush and I certainly don't have an axe to grind. Unlike many, who think truth is beautiful, I'm well aware that sometimes truth is very ugly.

EDIT: Official Assassin: Winston Churchill's Sas Hit Team (Hardcover)
by Peter Mason

ISBN: 0932572316

Have a read. Might give you an insight into the mind of the "great statesman".

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm no Churchill fan. The best that can be saud about him is that he stood up to Hitler. I have a very low opinion on him.

 

[privatehudson]

There's a difference between a massacre that happened in the heat of the moment and the Government and military adopting a atmosphere where massacres, both cold blooded and heat of the moment were commonplace. What the Americans did at Dachau wasn't right but under the circumstances was to a degree understandable.

However I would say that many Waffen SS officers had served in camps at one time or another so they were not completely detached from them. I wonder also if there was ever an occasion when they provided assistance in rounding up Jewish Ghettos or to the Einstatsgruppen.

 

[Zardnaar]

Well there were "good" SS men. One of them was at Auschwitz and saved what he could and requested a transfer IIRC. His testimony was used after the war to shoot down the "I was only Following Orders" defence. He is a semi hero to various Jewish survivor organisations.

 

[CruddyLeper]

There's a difference between a massacre that happened in the heat of the moment and the Government and military adopting a atmosphere where massacres, both cold blooded and heat of the moment were commonplace.

That was the whole point of the thread. You meant the Nazis, but if you listen to people around at the time, the same culture of indifference was cultivated by the US and the UK's war leaders.

Guilt by omission, instead of guilt by comission.

 

[privatehudson]

The Western Allied governments may have been indifferent but the German Government certainly was not indifferent to such events. Even if the Western allies ignoring events like the Dachau Massacre were commonplace that is no comparison to the Nazi regime were it was encouraged and supported by the regimes stated intentions, racial policies and propaganda. Not to mention the Army handing and carrying out orders to that effect.

A better comparison would be to the Soviet army.

 

[nonconformist]

However I would say that many Waffen SS officers had served in camps at one time or another so they were not completely detached from them. I wonder also if there was ever an occasion when they provided assistance in rounding up Jewish Ghettos or to the Einstatsgruppen.

Of course; SS Police Divisions, and regulars were used in the crusing of the Warsaw Ghetto.
Also, there were the SS FallschirmJager (the Hermann Goering division?) that were more or less compeltely separate from the remainder of the SS.

As for most officers having served in Concentration Camps....I was under the impression that KZ guards were recruited from amongst the 3rd SS Totenkopf Liebstandarte?
While most were undoubtedly card-carrying fervent Nazis, I can think of a few notable ones who weren't KZ guards (Sepp Dietricht, Jochen Peiper, Otto Skortzeny, "Panzer" Meyer)

 

[privatehudson]

Of course; SS Police Divisions, and regulars were used in the crusing of the Warsaw Ghetto.

I'm thinking more before this period in the early years of the war in the east.

Also, there were the SS FallschirmJager (the Hermann Goering division?) that were more or less compeltely separate from the remainder of the SS.

The HG Division (later corps) were exclusibely Luftwaffe, they were Goering's little toy and had nothing to do with the SS. The formation you mean is the 500th SS FallschirmJaeger batallion.

As for most officers having served in Concentration Camps....I was under the impression that KZ guards were recruited from amongst the 3rd SS Totenkopf Liebstandarte?

I didn't say most I said many. One example I heard was that prior to the invasion of Russia the 6 SS divisions all contained officers who had served in the camp. Naturally the 3rd contained the highest number but if memory serves the others contained around 30 each with the exception of Leibstandarte which had fewer. I have no idea about the numbers of NCO rank and below.

While most were undoubtedly card-carrying fervent Nazis, I can think of a few notable ones who weren't KZ guards (Sepp Dietricht, Jochen Peiper, Otto Skortzeny, "Panzer" Meyer)

Well sure, I'm not trying to say they're all bad, just that many had first hand experience of the implementation of Hitler's racial theories.

 

[Xanikk999]

Well there were "good" SS men. One of them was at Auschwitz and saved what he could and requested a transfer IIRC. His testimony was used after the war to shoot down the "I was only Following Orders" defence. He is a semi hero to various Jewish survivor organisations.

Uhh i never got what was wrong with the "I was following orders" defense.

If you didnt follow orders under the nazi problem youd find yourself dead im sure.

 

[CruddyLeper]

Of course; SS Police Divisions, and regulars were used in the crusing of the Warsaw Ghetto.
Also, there were the SS FallschirmJager (the Hermann Goering division?) that were more or less compeltely separate from the remainder of the SS.

I think you might be getting Warsaw Ghetto Uprising confused with the general Warsaw Uprising of 1944.

 

[Zardnaar]

Uhh i never got what was wrong with the "I was following orders" defense.

If you didnt follow orders under the nazi problem youd find yourself dead im sure.

The SS officer testified this wasn't the case. He refused and was either transfered or assigned to other duties in the camp. He also faked research results to keep patients alive. Considering several camp guards had breakdowns or had to get blind drunk to do there job there was no pressure to do the camp work. Reassignment was an option apparently.

 

[nonconformist]

I think you might be getting Warsaw Ghetto Uprising confused with the general Warsaw Uprising of 1944.

Very probably

Uhh i never got what was wrong with the "I was following orders" defense.

If you didnt follow orders under the nazi problem youd find yourself dead im sure.

No, working in KZ was generally an optional job. Records, for example, which the Nazis kept absolutely meticulously, show that not a single German was executed for refusing to work there.