Nobels for Violence

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Succession Games' started by Grendeldef, Aug 25, 2021.

  1. beetle

    beetle Deity GOTM Staff

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    @fiddlesticks do you happen to remember how many NW are left?

    With our past games, I have often not been able to resist the temptation to see what happens the few turns after posting a save file. But I do not think you should be sharing those outcomes until after the next player goes.

    Why a Chariot Archer this late in the game?

    Also, more second guessing, @Grendeldef why did you not pick a faith building? With the 2nd religion, at the very least Cathedrals must have available.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2021
  2. fiddlesticks

    fiddlesticks Chieftain

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    10-4 beetle. I didn't catch how many wonders were left though.

    Edit - I wanted another unit down by Palenque fast and the CA was only 2 turns.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2021
  3. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    Gren left at the wrong time. I need more support for moar cities lol. (Also Gren mentioned we founded on T67).
     
  4. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    @fiddlesticks can you post screenshots for your round? I'm at work during the day and can't check the save file.
     
  5. fiddlesticks

    fiddlesticks Chieftain

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    @raider980 Sorry, I can't since I'm in the same boat as you. I was rushing a bit this morning to get the turns done before leaving for the office.
     
  6. beetle

    beetle Deity GOTM Staff

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    From my save file, I ran the GAd due west then south (as you did). Three more Natural Wonders left to find.
    From opening your save file, the CA dies at the end of t99. But I think your strategy may have worked well enough, since (1) Palenque is half dead, (2) the CA almost certainly got off at least one shot (since the terrain is flat), (3) I would rather the CA took those one or two shots than any other unit, (4) we are spared the decision to upgrade/delete. Win/win/win/win. A stream of CA to Palenque might not be a bad way to take the city! It is like Ancient Era Cruise Missiles!

    Also, noted from the T100 save file: I think we need to use our Classical Era DOW bribe sooner than latter. Ahmad and Ashurbanipal are massing at our border. Also, Gandhi forward settled on us, but we do not currently have visibility on Pataliputra, and he might be a problem too.
    My apologies for not including this detail in my turn-by-turn account and it is exactly the sort of thing which I should have explicitly thought to mentioned as notes for the next player.

    If there are good options for faith auto-purchase, I make use of this feature. In my experience, (1) is not uncommon for cities to loose their religion, so manual purchases sometimes means getting the prompt, but then not being able to buy a faith building. Also (2) during the Era changes, if faith auto-purchase is on, that can save a couple hundred faith a few times a game, because auto-purchase uses the previous era cost, while manual purchase is always at the current era cost.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2021
  7. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

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    It's not that I didn't enjoy the game or anything dramatic in that respect - I was almost ecstatic when Pacal DoWed though had I foreseen it I would've swirched Stockholm to units from the start as well. Now I didn't even have time to denounce him as he didn't have excessive mount of units on border - the next turns changed that quite quickly. I was also planning to drop the Gold city just to clear the camp but got some help from a CS so it was done by a single Scout.

    That's a Huge mage map even though there're only 10 Civs, there's is tons of empty land where no one is settling for a while so there'll be camps, a lot of them, we have two flatland cities with several open-to-shoot-tiles against Pacal who's not too happy with us and the cities are too far from each other to defend as one, about forward settle towards Honor Ashur not in war with anyone on a spot which can be taken by 2 STs since we can only block one with the escorting Warrior and we're building WWs, infra & Caravans which have no safe routes to anywhere since we have at least two camps nearby and barbs pillaging capital while playing a civ which benefits immensely from GGs. This is beyond my comprehension so it's better for me to drop out now before dragging this into something that it isn't going as I was about to go offline soon anyway.

    Currently the plan is to start moving towards north on Wednesday next week which would've given me a stint or two before leaving but I saw no reason to derail this any further. I'll be still following the game with interest. On hindsight I should've pass this altogether for learning purposes as I originally planned but it was too tempting to pass.

    ---------
    Good question. As it seemed at the time I was less than certain that we could keep our cities following our religion without actively converting and without expanding that's a waste. I'd rather take Pacal's religion in frontline cities, use the first 800 Faith there, take the hammer bonus for capital, doesn't hurt elsewhere either & sort out the religious battle after that. I wasn't at all sure anymore if the plan was to expand or not.
    There was also the option of taking happiness for Temples or Gardens but that seemed wasteful as well. It was an interestingly difficult choice for 2nd religion but as I've said I have occasionally hard times understanding how others play the game.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2021
  8. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Aggressive settling to me only makes sense if you can either 1) defend the city, or 2) secure DOFs quickly, or 3) just bribe the neighbor(s).

    (As a side note, I think that even if bribing isn't an exploit per se, it makes the game much easier, more so than any other game mechanic mentioned in the ruleset, save for maybe the white peace bug. I don't like such get out of jail free cards, but I concede they might be necessary for SGs go to smoothly, or just in general for Deity to be less tedious to play. What I liked about the original no bees and no gold from AIs rules is that there was a very real chance to lose or at least be heavily punished for mistakes, like in the Rome game)

    Hence my calls to build military and caravans - military for defence and barb control, caravans for positive diplo, plus extra gold for bribes if needed, plus science to reach Construction or whatever quicker. Stockholm -> Nimrud was a TR that we could've sent much earlier. The two nearby camps had archers in them so the Pike could've just walked over them. We could've quickly gotten a few Archers, Stoneworks and Caravan (preferrably with overflow from a Settler) in Stockholm - it had decent hammers and 3 chops, so this wouldn't have delayed expansion too much. And with 3 quarries and +50% to settler production SW pays for itself in like 12 turns anyway. Sending a TR to Pacal was safe as well.

    Instead we went for a build order that to me seemed to contradict everything we had talked about before that. So my line of thinking was to try and compensate for the hammers we lost in Stockholm with production in our expos, which is why I suggested chopping Caravan/Military/Worker in Helsinki and Archer-Settler in Sigtuna, and started a Settler in Birka. Basically just trying to catch up to what I thought the original plan was.

    In the end we seem to have gone for a 4-city Liberty CB push which is a fine strategy, but completely unexpected after a discussion about how we wanted to plant like 10 expos. Perhaps it was better to call off any further expansion and just focus on killing things and getting a sub-100 NC, but to me it seemed like the overall mood in the thread was to plant more cities even if the in-game actions suggested otherwise.

    Regardless, we appear to be in a decent position as long as we bribe Ashur to attack Ahmad here. Could even bribe him to attack Ahmad and Pacal so that we get a huge diplo buff with him for taking Palenque at the cost of spending an extra lux on the bribe. We'll get another Marble and Ivory from Palenque though, lots of faith for Pagodas and Mosques and we still have Gold to improve. And a GG to gift.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2021
  9. fiddlesticks

    fiddlesticks Chieftain

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    I think the double DOW bribe with Assur is a great idea. Just do it after the turn 100 attacks to avoid the unhappiness penalty on those attacks.
     
  10. beetle

    beetle Deity GOTM Staff

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    @raider980 — I also vote +1 to bribe Assurbanipal to DOW both Ahmad and Gandhi, at the end of T100.

    I think we wipe Pacal off the map, razing any city without a wonder. NC. Then discuss how much to back fill. Meanwhile, pick our next target.

    I must confess I am not following the off-script / off-plans conversation. My own feeling is that we are doing a better job with that than in our previous games. But then, I am the one who tried to see if we could catch Pyramids. (Which is, of course, one of the usual perks of running Liberty.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2021
  11. fiddlesticks

    fiddlesticks Chieftain

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    I just want to say that this is a lot of fun. I like the messiness of 5 cooks in the kitchen and figuring out how to manage a sprawling empire together.
     
  12. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Ashur vs Gandhi could be the Medieval bribe (or we could even try the diplo screen option if we decide to go for Gandhi as well), but for now I think it's better to do Ashur vs Ahmad & Pacal so that the common foe diplo bonus from capturing Palenque offsets reckless expander and warmonger penalties.
    Why? I'd stay at war but not eliminate him. I think most of our army should start moving east immediately after taking Palenque. Just leave a small force behind to steal an occasional Mayan worker or even Great Prophet if we're lucky. Wiping Pacal off the map will just lead to chain denouncements against us.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2021
  13. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    Well, I played two turns last night before this most recent conversation and didn't do any of what you all are saying to do. I can go back and try what you all are saying if we want, but:
    1. I couldn't take Palenque on T100, I have no idea how you did it @fiddlesticks , there is not enough damage from the CB to allow the Horse to take the city.
    2. Which means if we bribe Ashur to attack Ahmad and Pacal we will immediately be in the negative happiness and it will be harder to take Palenque.
    What I did was:
    • I checked to see the cost of various bribes.
      • Ashur to DoW Ahmad was 2 luxes and 2 horse, that puts us at 0 happiness.
      • Ashur to DoW Gandhi or Pacal was 1 lux and 2 horses.
    • So I bribed Ashur to DoW Gandhi.
      • Why Gandhi, because I figured Ashur wouldn't actually commit any troops to attacking Pacal so that's kind of pointless. I didn't think about the positive diplo for being at war with the same civ. (This illustrates the off-script conversation perfectly. And why I understand that Gren and vadalaz get frustrated - I simply don't think of the things that you all think of. They never enter my mind so it seems like we're going off-script when really I never rehearsed the script in the first place.)
    • Ahmad DoW us on the interim after T100.
    • Then I took Palenque.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2021
  14. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    I'm fine with continuing as is. We'll lose a city but that's okay, it's not particularly useful yet anyway, we can let Ahmad develop it for us and hopefully it'll keep some nice buildings when we retake it.
     
  15. fiddlesticks

    fiddlesticks Chieftain

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    You're right @raider980. I replayed the 100-103 turns this morning and it was 101 for me too. I was going by memory. I'm with vadalaz - I think your approach works fine. The idea of keeping a low-level war with Pacal going seems smart too.
     
  16. beetle

    beetle Deity GOTM Staff

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    Not if (1) before Renaissance and (2) WC.

    A too-soon WC is a risk with a GAd, which did give me some concern for that choice.

    I am generally not a fan of being the one to eliminate a civ, but I do think that is the best option on this map. I would like for us to have a city on the coast behind Uxmal. Two fish, three sheep, Ivory, and Mt. Sinai. But at that point, we will have left Pacal with only one city. The hate from that is not much different from the hate we will get from wiping Pacal off the map. Also, Ahmad and Gandhi will hate us anyway. Ashurbanipal will not care. We can kill Pacal before any of the civs on the other continent ever meet him, so they will not care either.

    I would like to get some UA boosted DOFs — and I think we can — after killing off Maya.

    Too bad about the DOW from Ahmad. I would have liked to fight Gandhi next. I think we could have gotten away with killing him off too, before WC, without triggering chain denouncements.

    If we are not going to kill off Pacal, I vote to make peace ASAP then. Even if the fighting west is light, it is still a significant distraction from the war with Ahmad. I would rather get Casablanca and Marrakech before Ashurbanipal DOWs us. And we know Ashurbanipal will DOW us!
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2021
  17. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

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    Not that I'm in much of a disagreement here but it's an interesting post. I also slightly changed the order in OP.

    Yeah, something like that :) Aggressive being a relative term here and the city locations do matter the Uluru city being a prime example - it doesn't need a Worker or unit(s) for dozens of turns to perform its main function. Sure it'll be a crappy one for ages but it still (sort of) works. The frontline cities on the other hand need to be defended or at least be able to defend if needed.

    I don't mind the change of plan from ~10 city wide start to 4C CB rush but I'm more used to doing that with some units as without them it seems unnecessarily hard though interesting to a degree. The Pacal's DoW was a wonderful surprise but I really would've liked to have some units to defend with and not having to go into full panic mode every citiy building units in the end.


    I've never seen it as an exploit in general but as half-heartedly implemented mechanic. It isn't always easy to bribe anyone to attack anything & it might get pricy which is fine but giving Attila or Shaka a free meal & a t-shirt to DoW the rest of the world is moronic.
    The no ban is interesting oneand it generally makes the game easier no doubt but that it's highly dependable on one's actions & starting location. While it makes Dom probably (much) harder it may not have any effect on Sci.
    The Purist's way is surely harder in any respect but that also affects warmongering way more than peaceful play. This might heavily change depending on one's view about pillage & repair.

    I don't see any TR properly safe when the cities have camps nearby & tiles are pillaged but I agree that the diplo bonus could've been achieved even if the Caravan wasn't necessarily turning into the Silk Road. Ashur's front was screaming a Caravan on turn of settling. Just a couple Archers and the order of the rest would've been of marginal importance.

    Nah, it's not that bad at all. In my case it really wasn't a choice between continuing, asylum or death. It was a practical solution but once again I could've been more careful with wording. As I said I thought the plan got lost in translation and switching to units whatever was in progress was changed or at least postponed so it didn't make much sense of doing that again in 40 turns before surely leaving for at least a week. My actions were ad hoc solutions to a potential problem, not a logical follow-up to much of anything happening previously and if someone actually predicted & planned the chaos in Sigtuna then you may have my congratulations - it apparently was a perfect balance between timing & hammers put into it. Slightly too exciting for my taste, though.
     
  18. beetle

    beetle Deity GOTM Staff

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    I also am fine continuing with the choices you made. So far, I believe, our only reload was when someone accidentally made use of the white peace bug. As @fiddlesticks noted, too many cooks is part of the fun!

    What are you thinking for the next SP choice? Liberty is done and no other trees are unlocked. Tradition opener for the border growth is always nice, but I don’t think we need to worry so much this game about an AI plopping down some weak city in the middle of our territory. My vote is for anything else.
     
  19. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Any SP works for me. Trad opener is always good and unlocks Aristocracy, Honor Patronage and Aesthetics all have synergy with the UA, Piety can be useful to purchase Pacal's faith buildings and then convert back to our religion.
     
  20. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    For SP, I was thinking either tradition or patronage. Aristocracy really helped last game, I never realized its power, and this game and we might have more cities this time than last. But with all these CS it might be nice to get the slower decay and then the +20 resting point.

    I forgot to mention in my previous post that I already made peace with Pacal right after I took Palenque so that discussion is moot, sorry. He had Atalast and Swords near Palenque still and didn't want to lose it back. And I figured we weren't going to bother taking any more of his cities and we would need troops in the east to defend against Ahmad. And maybe Ashur, he didn't move his LS away from Birka even after DoWing Gandhi. Or perhaps he's just slow. I did send a TR to Ashur so hopefully that placates him.

    I always thought that wiping out a Civ had a much greater diplo hit than simply taking all the rest of his cities. We should be meeting the AI on the other continent soon too.
     

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