Nobles' Club 242: Charlemagne of the Holy Roman Empire

[azatol]

@sylvanllewelyn

Spoiler Response w spoilers 500ad ish :

Yeah that was a pretty stupid city location. Shaka took that city, but the terrain was good for blocking him from taking anything else. I could have settled more Northwest from there where Isabella just snuck a settler in while I was fighting Shaka.

 

[MeowZeDung]

@sylvanllewelyn

Spoiler :

Beelined writing right after archery iirc. Cap and third city (gold/wheat) prioritized libraries and ran 2 GS a piece pretty much asap. Not sure of the date. Bulbs weren't incredibly early. I self teched math, masonry, construction, aesth, machinery, traded for Alpha, IW, and bulbed MC and Engineering.

I think whatever tech success I had was mostly due to triple gold, several early cottages, and failgold in multiple cities powered by stone and gold. High happy caps due to wine/gold/furs helpful too.

On EMP Pangaea (unknown at start) archery was overkill. Easy enough fogbusting on this map. I did it because I hate RNG and RNG hates me. Of course in a game where I have PRO archers only two see combat and I end up with a woodsman 2 warrior :eyeroll:

 

[Snowbird]

To t77

Spoiler :

Am I finally paying for not having Archery?

No Barbs are trying to reinforce Hsung-Nu... which was saved by Shaka declaring on Ottomans.

Overall, dropped some cottages, traded for ivory with Sulleiman (which was interupted by Shaka war and now is reestablished). Flipped Aesthetics for alpha with Pacal (no real choice), then flipped Alpha for Iw, Sailing, Masonry (I think also minor religious tech - to avoid pissing other AI by)

I do have option for iron...

I think straight on iron (to later claim marble), work some deer and some cottages. I have a settler ready.

Then I think I will culturally convert barbs at swordpoint (very literally) while Shaka and Sulleiman are fighting. That would leave me with ~7 cities (there are options like ice-fish in the NE or maybe extra barb city in SE -- the one lower Hsung reinforcing archer came from). Also Ivory, Iron, Horse(hopefully - the worst case Isabella has a spare which is traded to Gilga - surely some sabotage/trade could be organized).
If someone relatively close builds Mids, elepult might be an option.

Barb near cap is trying reinforce deep north barb city --- not sure what he would do if it fell (I think since he is on City defense script, it would go to nearest/least defended barb city).

 

[dankok8]

Played to turn 87 (700 BC).

Spoiler :

6 cities. Pyramids on turn 83. A little behind on infrastructure but a few more key Libraries will come on in the next two turns. Happy cap is 10-12 which is fantastic considering the Furs aren't even connected yet! On my 5-turn rewind to fix the stupid Prague Gold mine whip, I decided to fogbust with Warriors and not go for Archery. Earlier Pottery was the right move and then went for Masonry and chopped the 'mids. Barbs pillaged one tile and I had Workers in place to repair immediately.

Diplomatic picture is quite simple. 4 civs are Hindu and only Izzy is Buddhist so that was an easy choice. Qin still has no religion but he's surrounded by me and Shaka so I hope he gets Hinduism too. Continent might be a big lovefest so my plan is to go for Lib-fueled Cuirassiers (assuming I have Iron) and take over Spain which should give me enough land to pursue any victory condition. I might even go for Space in this one just to change it up or I might just keep conquering and go the usual route.

 

[migalhone]

My first win ever at Civ4, Noble, turn 220-something. This Cuirassier rush is something indeed, went long enough for them to become Cavalry. (although in my game it's called Heavy Horseman??? Also, apparently Horse Archers are HA??? )

Spoiler Won via Conquest, vassalized everyone except... :

Gilgamesh, prefered to die than capitulating. Kudos for refusing to bend the knee, even after Isabella, Pacal, Suleiman and Shaka capitulated to me. Are Protective AIs more prone to refuse capitulation?

After killing Gilgamesh, Qin capitulated after losing 2 cities IIRC

I've attached the save file, in case someone is fond of cringing at others badness

 

[azatol]

1100 AD update.

Spoiler Peace :

From 175 BC to 1100 AD I was at war with Shaka, I finally decided to ask for White Peace again and got it.

My technology was superior, I took back the one city I lost, and was working on the city I hadn't lost, but with the low number of cities I had, I couldn't catch up in number of units. I did get some veteran units, some macemen, but a lot of axe and a few swordsman and several crossbowman. I've got 2 Healer GGs, and one other GG, plus a settled GG in the capital.

My civilization is small and penned in. I need to look and see where I can go. Isabella is weak but might declare. Maya and Zulu are also Frowny face, so I have to keep going with some kind of military plan.

Rifle + Cannons??

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

My first win ever at Civ4, Noble, turn 220-something. This Cuirassier rush is something indeed, went long enough for them to become Cavalry. (although in my game it's called Heavy Horseman??? Also, apparently Horse Archers are HA??? )

First, congrats on the win! That first Noble win is a good feeling.

As for the name changes, I think that comes with Buffy? Most of them don't bother me too much, but why a maceman (literally a man that carries a mace) was renamed to "heavy footman" will always allude me. Are they wearing oversized boots?

Finally, I didn't get a chance to take a look at your save yet...but you just won with a terrible leader, on a respectable turn count as well. Skip Prince and go straight to Monarch. In my opinion, Prince is sort of a waste of time. This is all depending on what you are looking to get out of the game. But since you are here at civfanatics I'm assuming you want to continue to progress. Prince will just slow you down. You can win on Monarch right now.

 

[azatol]

I thought Noble was hard for me, but somehow in this game after a lot of mistakes and awkward situations I still have a chance to pull out a victory.

Spoiler 1540 AD :

The AI seemed real smart in some aspects, but complete inept in others. I'm at 1540 AD, and it's going to be a late one no matter what. No one has passed me in tech, and I'm way behind where I'd like to be due to constant war. and I'm still super close to Zulu in score. After peace with Shaka in 1100 AD, I had to preemptively declare on him later, as he had a decent size stack of catapults on my doorstep, and a few elephants but not much non-siege beyond that.

I dealt with the immediate problem, Pacal declared on me, but then I was forced back because Shaka was hiding in Isabella's territory and threatening me all over the place, plus Pacal was attacking my western city. I declared on Isabella, so I could see where Shaka's forces were. Pacal and Isabella were weak, but I was in an awkward position dealing with all of them.

Then, My knights were being very helpful, but someone Spy sniped my Iron mine.

China was about to declare on me too, so I did an emergency switch to Confucianism. No one was Hindu at that point but me, even though I wasted some peacetime hammers on converting cities.

Between pacifying China with that, then capturing the big city Isabella had between my southern front and western & central fronts, I was able to take peace with Isabella and Pacal, and focus on Shaka, who continues to have more production than me, but it's mostly foolish. I am almost to grenadiers. I've got more great generals than I can remember having. But a lot of them are Crossbows still, hoping those upgrade to Rifleman or something soon. I just got a Rifleman great general which helps, and generally better quality units, but it's close. I'm taking anti-horse and anti-siege promotions where I can, as he has built a ton of catapults and horse archers, against my Rifles, macemen, trebs and still some crossbows.

I've got 2 settled GGs in my capital as well, so every unit I produce there is quite experienced. I need to trade or backfill for a lot of techs after I finish getting grenadiers. I can't trade for much, except the cultural track techs that I skipped, like Music. Hopefully I can get Grenadiers and start actually taking Zulu cities. I've been in a stalemate against him most of the game. Taking 2 of Isabella's cities is the most success I've had.

 

[migalhone]

First, congrats on the win! That first Noble win is a good feeling.

As for the name changes, I think that comes with Buffy? Most of them don't bother me too much, but why a maceman (literally a man that carries a mace) was renamed to "heavy footman" will always allude me. Are they wearing oversized boots?

Finally, I didn't get a chance to take a look at your save yet...but you just won with a terrible leader, on a respectable turn count as well. Skip Prince and go straight to Monarch. In my opinion, Prince is sort of a waste of time. This is all depending on what you are looking to get out of the game. But since you are here at civfanatics I'm assuming you want to continue to progress. Prince will just slow you down. You can win on Monarch right now.

Thanks for the cumpliment! Ive had another games where i had a good start too and playing until turn 100, aiming to get 5-6 cities, teching at least to Currency/CoL, and pulling around 100 beakers/turn, at 100% research slider ofc: i feel this is a good goal early game, at least on normal pangea without huts or events.

Its just that i often lack the time to finish a game, or when i do, a new Nobles Club pops out and i lose interest on the last one.

The unit names may be from the mod im using, not like it bothers me too much. Sure, i find it weird to call a cuirassier "heavy horseman", specially when when they are an upgrade from knights. The heavy footman kinda makes sense, because the few i actually built didnt had maces, just swords and shields on their unit graphic on the lower left corner, when i selected them.

Yeah next game i'll give it a go at Monarch and see how it goes. I just want to have fun with this game, and win ofc, doing both while playing higher levels seems great.
Btw whats the difference between Noble, Prince and Monarch? The AI gets more starting units? I know they get extra starting techs as we go up the difficulty level.

 

[Snowbird]

to t88 - stopped because I need to rethink general approach

Spoiler :

Got the barb cities, lost three swords (all at 55%+ odds). I also had to cancel OB with Issy for few turns (C2 chariots speeding through my fresh made roads did not seem fine).
Traded for Maths and Mono.
Gilgamesh declared on Mayans which bribed chinese in. Currently only me and Issabella not in the war.

I thought going Drama>Music, bulb philo, but that does not really work without trade partners. Currently I guess I finish Drama (probably trade for Monarchy). I think it is about 10 turns to marble(I think I will try chop out Great Library in Aachen) ,unless I want to build ice fort (which is not a tragic idea). In general, I need to rethink what I am doing with workers, since I don't think the most southern pig is culturally keepable.
In general, Shaka and Ottomans seem to be mega backward and wasting units... if I only could trade for something like construction, I could try getting on Shaka. Ofcourse, some scouting southwards is needed (Shaka lands, barb city, where on Earth ottomans built Mids).

p.s. fort on ice is 15 worker turns...

 

[dankok8]

Played to turn 107 (200 BC).

Spoiler :

Things are going according to plan more or less. Cities growing to happy cap although some are a bit behind. 151 bpt isn't bad but isn't great either. Still on track to break out with Cuirassiers against Izzy but I gotta play optimally here. Gonna settle city #7 next turn to claim Fish, Iron, and more Furs up in the ice. Tech situation is good. Ottomans plotting worries me a bit.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Everyone's games seem so "clean"! Build orders are followed and games unfold according to script.

My game is "make it up as you go along". Just like my real life.

Deity no huts no events normal speed 1150-AD to 1360-AD

Spoiler :

The lands of former Spain, like the HRE, is also half-tundra, so I have to keep expanding. The Ottomans are very far but they are the weakest and don't have gunpowder. City maintenance will be a *****.

Bait the Ottomans into declaring on the Zulu while the Zulu are busy fighting Sumeria. They will spread their forces thin to try to take back their cities.

The plan is, Ottomans take back former cities from Zulu, then I take them from the Ottomans.

By the way, and I can't take a screenshot of this, but I almost emptied my lands for this attack. I left behind had two (2) archers defending twelve (12) cities, just enough to fend off any barbarian warriors from the arctic.

Maya asks for my techs. Little vassals with 4 cities total can be ignored.

They are also tech leader. Even at friendly, they have no resources and I have no techs for trade.

The diplomatic situation is favourable as Sumeria declared on China. China will eventually manage to take the city that I asked them to attack, like, three centuries ago.

Shaka has an interesting AI. -1 for bringing an ally against them and +2 for mutual military struggle.

China asks for my techs. China is my (only) all-weather friend and I will give a city if they ask.

Sumeria, meanwhile, can urinate up a rope.

Ottomans conquered and the world is still at war.

If someone asks me to join I don't know what to do.

Tech situation.

Demographics. Someone's got more than twice my production. Crap.

The "first in land" is bulls***. Most of the Ottoman lands are also tundra and varieties of hills. Only half my lands are able to produce anything.

 

[MeowZeDung]

Emperor 1615 AD Religious victory

Spoiler :

The initial UU/Treb rush went great. Declared on Izzy around 225 AD iirc. Went through Spain like a hot knife through butter. Built the HE as soon as my first GG promoted a super medic.

The turn I was about to declare war I noticed this wonderful arrangement down by the barb city south of my empire Izzy had conquered. Much obliged.

On the other hand, this was annoying:

She already had the Buddhist shrine in her capitol and she didn't have another holy city, so I don't know why this guy was wandering around instead of being settled. I let him live to run to the nearest city, but even then she wouldn't settle him and I had to kill him rather than delay conquest

Shaka was making me a bit nervous by dropping to cautious and having a small impi/chariot stack near my southernmost city as I was focused on Spain, so I paid a bit of a premium and bribed him into the war. There was still no demand to adopt Hinduism, so I just went ahead and finished up CS and revolted into Hinduism, then HR/CS/OR.

Shaka dutifully marched his stack across my empire and the former spanish lands to the distant northern frontier tundra city, which I promptly razed. I think, with better planning, that I could have timed things just right and had a small stack along my southern borders protecting me from a zulu invasion whilst I massacred his stack far from home. Shaka was the clear leader amongst the AI at that point, but I just didn't want to risk getting dogpiled or losing in some stupid way, so I went the conservative route and double back to conquer China.

Qin didn't last long and proved to be a wonderful vassal for teching. I razed the dumb city he put along my border (for horse I assume) but returned the others after he capped.

I decided to put the globe theater in Izzy's old capitol, upgrade my trebs to cannons, and draft rifles. Theaters also proved useful to resist the Sumerian culture crush.

I had a huge army ready to go and declared on Shaka sometime in the 1300s. He went down after 4-5 cities were taken, which I then gifted back after capping and taking tribute.

Despite being the tech leader a huge portion of the game, Maya had the smallest empire of all the AI and capped to Sumeria. Gilgamesh and Suleiman were both at friendly, but one must do whatever it takes to win

Declared on sumeria and promptly took 3 cities. That broke Maya's capitulation to them. Right around this time they bribed Suleiman in, who I did not realize could declare at friendly, unless he fell to pleased first and I didn't notice. So that was frustrating. Ultimately no biggie though since I had Qin and Shaka to soak it all up while I finished of Gilgamesh's last two cities. I took one and then. . . he vassaled to Pacal, who had been vassaled to him 3 turns previously. . .

Sigh.

It was only a minor nuisance though. I decided to just eliminate Sumeria, then I capped Maya a few turns after that. I sent the marching orders for all troops to cross the map toward Suleiman when the AP vote came up. It feels anticlimactic to win with the AP in a clear Conquest/Dom type game with a sweet engineering bulb rush and medieval war pretty smoothly transitioning into a Industrial era stomping. Oh well. A win is a win.

Really fun map.

 

[MeowZeDung]

@migalhone

Spoiler :

Gilgamesh, prefered to die than capitulating. Kudos for refusing to bend the knee, even after Isabella, Pacal, Suleiman and Shaka capitulated to me. Are Protective AIs more prone to refuse capitulation?

IIRC AI are weighted differently as to how willing they are to capitulate. I don't know if traits have anything to do with it, but I think the more warlike AI are harder to cap generally speaking. Monty and Napoleon always cling to their independence for a long time, and I was actually quite surprised at how quick Shaka capped this game for me.

 

[migalhone]

@migalhone

Spoiler :

IIRC AI are weighted differently as to how willing they are to capitulate. I don't know if traits have anything to do with it, but I think the more warlike AI are harder to cap generally speaking. Monty and Napoleon always cling to their independence for a long time, and I was actually quite surprised at how quick Shaka capped this game for me.

@MeowZeDung

Spoiler :

Then perhaps Gilgamesh is a special case of a stubborn AI.

I first forced Isabella to capitulate then DOW'ed him, he peacevassaled to Shaka after i took like 3 cities from him, then Shaka forced peace via AP. After that Pacal was DOW'ed by Shaka, and asked me to peacevassal him, allowing me to return Shaka the favor. War quickly becomed a stalemate, then Shaka again forced peace via AP.

Then Shaka bribed Suleiman and Qin to war against me, even though they were both Pleased with me, and very close to Friendly, which would have given me control of the AP. But Shaka had Suleiman's favor because of +6 "a first impression is a lasting one". I know the AI is predisposed against human players but c'mon! Plus 6??

Anyways...Qin moves ZERO troops into my borders, and i proceed to dismantle 2 smallish/medium Suleiman stacks, and took a city. BAM, he capitulates (quite easily, if i might add).

Then, when the cease fire with Shaka and Sumeria finished, i stroke again, this time going hard on Shaka: wiped 3 of his stacks and took 3-4 cities. Shaka admita defeat and capitulates. Meanwhile, on the west Gilgamesh kep losing unit after unit, city after city. But he never capitulated, so i had to kill him.

At this point only Qin remained. Before he was bribed to DOW me, our relations were excelent, and i believe at some point in the future i would be able to peacevassal him, but thanks to the bribed DOW our relations got sour: he DOW'me and after that i was to blame? 10/10 logic Qin.
Oh well, with only China remaining independent, now either i attacked China for a quicker Conquest win, or i popped borders on some of my 20+ cities to win via Domination.
Ended preferring the quicker Conquest win, was a fun game.
[/SPOILER

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Right around this time they bribed Suleiman in, who I did not realize could declare at friendly, unless he fell to pleased first and I didn't notice.

AI attitude toward you is the average of how an AI feels about you and every vassal you have. Friendly towards you and Cautious towards your vassal averages out to Pleased, and you know what that means .

But Shaka had Suleiman's favor because of +6 "a first impression is a lasting one". I know the AI is predisposed against human players but c'mon! Plus 6??

First Impression modifiers aren't purely a "screw the human player" mechanic, for the record. It's not really visible on this map, but it can be as extreme in the opposite direction as you've seen it in action here - Monty and Gandhi, for instance, I've seen as low as -8 for First Impressions, starting them right at Furious with each other .

 

[migalhone]

Spoiler :

AI attitude toward you is the average of how an AI feels about you and every vassal you have. Friendly towards you and Cautious towards your vassal averages out to Pleased, and you know what that means .

First Impression modifiers aren't purely a "screw the human player" mechanic, for the record. It's not really visible on this map, but it can be as extreme in the opposite direction as you've seen it in action here - Monty and Gandhi, for instance, I've seen as low as -8 for First Impressions, starting them right at Furious with each other .

@AcaMetis

Spoiler :

When i vassaled Isabella i tanked my relationships since she was the only Buddhist AI. Other options were Gilgamesh (Jewish), Shaka (Hindu), Suleiman (Hindu) or Qin (Hindu).
Wasn't bordering Pacal (the other Jewish AI) so i figured Isabella would capitulate to me quickly and wouldn't peacevassal to no-one since her diplo relations to the other AIs was bad, so i went for her first. Then i thought Gilgamesh would follow quickly, although that might had been me underestimating his size, cultural defenses and PRO longbowmen (lost more Cuirs/Cavs than i'm proud to admit ).

In hindsight, i see that when going for mass capitulations like i did, the best target is not necessarily the weakest AI(in power-rating terms) nor the diplo-isolated (sole AI with a certain state religion), since the other AIs diplo oppinion on the vassals are a contributing factor on diplo relations.

Although if my first target were to be Qin/Suleiman/Shaka, regardless of who i attacked, the attacked would most likely get the other 2 Hindu to DOW'me. So i'm guessing things were going to become messy quickly anyways?

So is the "First Impressions" between AIs fixed? For example Suleiman will always have +6 towards Shaka in every game no matter what? Or is it randomized?

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Although if my first target were to be Qin/Suleiman/Shaka, regardless of who i attacked, the attacked would most likely get the other 2 Hindu to DOW'me. So i'm guessing things were going to become messy quickly anyways?

So is the "First Impressions" between AIs fixed? For example Suleiman will always have +6 towards Shaka in every game no matter what? Or is it randomized?

Attacking Izzy in that situation was the best option in terms of avoiding DoWs short-term. She was diplomatically isolated and therefore couldn't bribe or otherwise bring anyone in against you, and the AP can't call for a Stop the War resolution if one of the two parties fighting is a non-member. It might have called for a crusade instead, but that's a different situation. I believe the mistake you made was vassalizing Izzy instead of conquering her completely. Taking a diplomatically isolated AI as a vassal basically destroys your diplomacy across the board, unless you can convert them (hint: you're not converting Izzy out of her self-founded religion), so at that point it became a free-for-all against you.

First Impressions is not fixed, there's some randomness to it. The variance isn't huge, I think like a +2/-2 range or so at most, but it can mean the difference between AIs being Pleased/Annoyed instead of Cautious.

 

[MeowZeDung]

@AcaMetis

Spoiler :

AI attitude toward you is the average of how an AI feels about you and every vassal you have. Friendly towards you and Cautious towards your vassal averages out to Pleased, and you know what that means .

Ah, I did not know that. Useful info indeed! Thanks.

 

[MeowZeDung]

@migalhone

Spoiler :

You might find this thread that I remembered from the strategy articles section interesting. It's a very handy resource. In turns out Giggles is only 4/10 resistant to capping whereas Shaka is 7/10 along with Alexander, Napoleon, and Julius Caesar. I was surprised that Monty was only 4/10 as well. I don't understand all the coding behind it, but you can always reference that thread during your games to know how long you might expect a war with a given AI to last based on their cap resistance, unit build rates, etc.