Nobles' Club 249: De Gaulle of France

[elitetroops]

@Pangaea

Spoiler :

Sending missionaries on caravels to pop huts should be even better. They can't get experience -> greater chance to pop tech.

Spies are probably best if barbs are on like they would be here.

 

[Fish Man]

@Pangaea

Spoiler :

Sending missionaries on caravels to pop huts should be even better. They can't get experience -> greater chance to pop tech.

Spies are probably best if barbs are on like they would be here.

Spoiler :

@Pangaea
Nope - no huts no events in my game. We're going to win this legit WITHOUT trying to cheese a 3380 beaker tech with a single boat and a missionary...that would feel even cheatier than, say, turning on random seed and reloading until all 5 of my axes won their 4% fights .

Good news, though, I think Lizzy is going astro (she just got optics). I'll have to pay her a visit with 2 dozen or so cuirs soon...

 

[Pangaea]

Aye, those comments were mostly in general about Terra maps, and I know that stuff has been done in the Hall of Fame, including by me a few times I think. Pretty sure I've gotten Astronomy from huts in one of those games. Don't like that aspect about HoF play, and to a lesser extent BOTM. But it is what it is

Incidentally, it's why I like to play on Immortal. The game is so much more "open", and it's not needed to play pretty much perfectly to stand a chance to win. It's possible to do different things and still get by. It's more fun to me.

(Of course, maybe I just suck).

 

[elitetroops]

Yeah, I'd never use huts outside HoF either. Even in HoF games I notice whatever they provide is not a big deal compared to all the other RNG elements. If they give something that's fine, but if the map is otherwise good I don't care even if I can't find a single hut. Hopefully they can then boost the AI a little instead.

The only game I've played that relied entirely on hut luck was a settler/marathon/AP challenge where the competition was so tough that it required the entire tech path to maths + a ton of workers/settlers from huts to be remotely competitive.

 

[Pangaea]

*groan* It's that kinda stuff that makes me want to tear out my hair, haha. Still have nightmares about that space-score marathon gauntlets from years ago, where WT and Kaitzilla battled it out. The amount of luck needed to get a map off the ground was surreal.

Playing for the HoF can be fun of course, but it can also be bottomlessly frustrating.

 

[elitetroops]

True, it can be frustrating, but luckily it doesn't have to be. With over 2000 slots in the tables, a vast majority of them can still be beaten with just an average start and solid gameplay.

Anyway, back to NC discussion! What can I say about this... De Gaulle is awesome!

 

[Pangaea]

True, and if only I played out some of the games I had back on Buffy .003, I'd have had a few more spots in there. Oh well, they were so micro-intensive that my brain melted or something

Are many playing this game?

 

[scheines]

Spoiler Back after a forum break, up to 2600 BC. Trying to push my game up to Immortal without needing to save + reload on occasion. Any nitpicks welcome! :

1400 land tiles is a huge map. Didn't realize it was a terra map until seeing the post details. Though, only 7 civs so astro seems like a key tech to reach.

Chose to SIP. Warrior went left because moving right wouldn't change anything. Seeing the resource arrangement after settling I am OK with my choice.

For techs I felt I had no choice to start with AH, and building a worker as per usual.

Met Gandhi pretty early, about T7. The continent looks small - by now I can see a coast to the east, south, west, and tundra to the north. So we are isolated on a teeny tiny continent. I presume. I round out early game by going for BW, and a few warriors to fogbust.

Worker does the pig first, since IMO 5F1H1C > 3F3H.

Grew to size 3, paused after 1 turn into a barracks (more on that later) to start a settler. Gandhi took the corn I wanted, so TBD on the city spot...

Worker starts roading, since he can't do anything else.

Warriors are moving into fogbusting spots.

State of affairs at 2600 BC. Settler is going to the copper that I was happy to have; I am thinking axe rushing is a no-brainer... Gandhi could be a good trading partner, but the landmass seems too cramped for much to come of keeping him alive. So, I am planning to eliminate him early, then bulb astro. Since I can hopefully take him out pre- civil service, Astro bulbing shouldn't be too tough.

Worker roaded to s2 - my 3rd and final city before going war mode. Also roaded generally towards Gandhi, which I'll finish later (time to chop!).

For techs - I actually want to go fishing next but have pottery selected in this screenshot.

Thoughts? I'm worried I am too eager to declare war in semi-iso after that NC with Hammurabi in semi-iso w/ Montezuma

 

[Fish Man]

t159 update

Spoiler :

I libbed MT t132 and immediately started whipping like a madman. Now, less than 30 turns later, I have capped the 2 strongest civs on the map. They gave me some nice techs for my trouble, too.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

My tech path after gunpowder MT was a bit of a gamble, but it was worth it. I banked gold for a few turns to see what Lizzy would go for after astronomy and, VERY luckily enough, she got printing press. So I traded nationalism for that. I then research a little bit of chemistry and banked a bit more gold...and lo and behold, she went scientific method next, which I also traded for. This was the last tech I could get before hitting WFYBTA. I bulbed chemistry, got sci meth, and immediately went for communism. Normally in a domination game I wouldn't bother doing all this, but in a deity space game, you are guaranteed to trash your economy a bit after the wars start. So getting to communism soon is all the more vital, lest you stall out and drown under the economic weight of your new conquests (you will recover eventually, but if you really hit the red at 0% it'll be a while and you may not make the t250 deadline). In this case, I traded for almost 6500 beakers towards that all-important tech, and bulbed an additional 1800 towards chemistry. Which meant that I reached state property t157, with some cash left to spare.

Spoiler :

The heroic epic city was vital for my war efforts, churning out a unit every 2 turns.

Spoiler :

Getting ready for rifling to upgrade my combat 3/4 cuirs into supercavalry...after that, I can mostly roll over whoever I wish. Justinian's my next target.

Spoiler :

 

[scheines]

Spoiler Up to 750 BC :

Went forward as planned: settle on the copper, get fishing for the 2x clams. Worker is chopping out another worker, then some boats.

Not sure what tile Orleans should be working (here it works the plains lol) ... I guess I could've had the boat ready for it, but IMO none of AH, Mining, BW can be skipped for fishing, right?

Prepping roads, getting granaries and barracks to chop / whip an army. Heading to alpha in case I want to extort techs from Gandhi.

Take some time to scout Gandhi. As usual he is a pretty soft target - only a few archers here and there. He is going BW, so I need to get on it before he has too many axes.

Just before I declare.

Still teching alpha.. workers are cleaning up the last few chops, getting down some cottages, and roading up the last few spots. I also got out a settler for the wine as shown here. I thought this was good to share the pig and the wines later. In hindsight... maybe not the best spot? Though, at the time I was thinking to settle towards Gandhi for easier travel during war. If I could pick again, I might've settled down south to one of the better spots, since this city won't contribute during war anyways.

Bombay was an easy take; got a nice roll on a 23% odds that helped. But, I got stuck pressing onto Delhi. He just had too much time to get some axes and archers out. I pillaged, reset after scouring the area for a few workers (and, I tried but took forever to find Vijayanagara), then cease fired. (Only to declare shortly later, as shown).

Any thoughts on where I went wrong here? I think I wasted ~4-5 turns roaming instead of peace treatying, and I probably should've whipped a few more axes instead of making that settler for Lyons? I guess my point is I'm struggling to decide when to take a cease fire, and knowing how much army I need. I usually end up wandering around a few turns before realizing I'm getting nothing for my time.

Despite my wasted turns I do manage to finish off Gandhi since he didn't have time to repair the copper. Perhaps as soon as I saw Delhi as too well defended, I should've pillaged and reset?

Nonetheless, I am decently happy with the position. I was surprised to meet 3 other civs - far less isolated than I thought (I need to learn more about Terra maps, lol). Evidently, Buddhism is the place to be, so I will convert and play some economic catch up. There are an easy 10 cities to be had with nobody in sight to take them (AIs won't settle across your borders, will they?).

What do you think is the optimal play? It seems like trying to axe rush America would set me off on the wrong foot with the Buddhist bloc, and there appears to be a ton of land to find elsewhere. Too much war will just allow other civs to reach it.

I see two options. Both involve me going to caste system next, I think.
* Stay on my initial plan to bulb astro for reaching the new world first.
* Play to win lib, and potentially try to hamstring everyone (via warring) enough that I can reach the new world first.

Going to keep options open, of course, but option 1 seems favorable and less risky.

Critique away!

 

[scheines]

Spoiler Up to 150 BC :

Here's the tech situation: I made the choice to self tech mysticism since I was not getting good options for alpha. This helped - I pick up meditation + polytheism first, then priesthood + iron working next.

I settled Rheims next. I don't *love* it, but it has it's own food and is near the capital. I can tell I am gonna be crawling to caste, so I opted for a cheap city first.

General situation after a bit. Hopefully I am not working anything too stupid
* The two east city sites could work, but I think the northern ones are superior (I get more resources). The s, late one gets 4 riverside / FP cottages, but I don't know if it's worth settling early?
* My recollection of city maintenance is that 6 and 10 cities are the best bang for your buck, correct? So I think I'd pick the 3 more cities I want, and call it a day for a bit (say, until astro?) Or, is it foolish to stop taking all these reasonable city spots? I'm not sure if more cities is always faster teching, or if there is a sweet spot.
* There are STILL more cities available way NW of me. The sheep + wheat spot can be made easy with caste. Iron is a key resource, whether for trades or for units. I feel like I want more like 12 cities here? I'd have 13 if I settle all 6 spots picked here. Would I be killing myself in city maintenance?

State of tech a bit later. I was desperate for happy cap, so I trade CoL for monarchy. Wise, or no? I also did polytheism -> masonry to push me toward a machinery bulb later, if I so choose.

Everything at 150 BC. Pushing for a GA with the first scientist, set to come in 5 turns. I only have buddhism in 1 city, so I am not well poised to utilize philosophy (do not want to be alone in another religion). Nonetheless, Delhi, Vijayanagara, Paris and Tours are all goodcandidates to get some GPs.

So, if all goes to plan, my next 3 scientists give me machinery and astro (bulbing twice). Any opinions on when to do academies? Maybe here it makes sense because of the water map?

SPOILER]

 

[elitetroops]

@scheines

Spoiler :

Since you did have a settler out before declaring, you can always consider using it to gift Gandhi a city, for example up there by wheat/stone. This will cause him to move at least one but usually two archers from his main cities towards that one. If you can snipe those archers in the open, he will send more. Not saying it would have been optimal play here, especially since he looked so weak before you declared, but in the right situation it can be a very powerful tool. The idea is that you get control of his powerful main cities sooner, while the gift city can be taken back easily later once it has grown to pop 2 and maybe been developed a bit by Gandhi.

I'd say a big no to academy on this map. You don't have that much commerce in capital but you do have lots of trading partners who hopefully can give you some extra trade value from bulbed techs. Getting to the new world quickly is also a huge advantage, so bulbing towards that seems like the right play. Academies are quite situational. I find the more I play the less I build of them.

 

[Fish Man]

t165 / 1050AD

@dankok8 - we're well on the way to space. Almost have steam power, next research should be AL.

Spoiler :

And the carnage continues, with Justin offering to cave after merely 5 turns of me bashing his head in.

Saladin has grens, no big deal. He built Taj before me so he must pay. Nobody is close to rifling. Terra is so big I can settle the entire new world and still probably not trip domination. Let's do it!

Getting an additional 20 or so cities after only 25 or so turns of war is something possible on deity only with the speed and power of cuirs. After these wars, the path to space should be smooth.

I'm getting steel from Lizzy soon-ish. Maybe I don't even need rifles; cannons + cuirs are an unconventional combo but the less beakers we waste on techs that aren't on the AL/electricity/industrialism path, the better.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[Fish Man]

Replayed a bit.

Spoiler :

So change of plans...after some thought I decided to replay about 10 turns and go for Brenny instead. It probably doesn't matter that much but in the long term their land is better for an intensive hammer economy than Justin's iceball tundra outposts. I also went rifling to make sure I could get Sally before any complications arose.

It's now t168 and I have 34 cities. Definitely will make it over 40 this game without tripping the dom limit (I only have about 27% of the land right now!). About to have like a dozen combat 5 cavs...they're almost as strong as tanks at this point.

Spoiler :

 

[Pangaea]

Win in 1310AD. Immortal no huts-events.

Spoiler :

Felt like I got off to a good start after having Axe-rushed Gandhi, despite the problems I had with gaining the copper back. Had 11 axes left after the war, so I continued with Justinian, culminating in capturing his capital. Bit later I got to Metal Casting and traded for Alpha. Not a great situation.

It's a nice city, but early on I lost a food source, and a little later I lost the second. But worse, this is the only source of horses, and we lose those as well, because his city to the west is pushing out culture, and it's really hard to combat with our own, despite building so many wonders and stuff there. Therefore it's decided to push out some catapults and elephants to take the city's near Constantinople, to free myself from the headache.

(Lost the motivation to write a proper update)
Later I steal Engineering from Roosevelt. Justinian capped early, before I could take his western city, but we got the tiles back. DOW Roosevelt and capture MoM, so then I get longer golden ages. Already started one with (partly) GE'ed Taj Mahal in Constantinople, though I never got enough culture from the whole thing, which was kinda the point. Lib Military Tradition and pump out Cuirs once we got those damn horses back. Before that I built elephants as we got Ivory in trade. Took a mighty long time, but located Elizabeth with trade route wonder in the far south. Popped the GMerchant there for 1500 . That allowed me to tech for maybe 15 turns at full pelt and got us a good way towards Lib. DOW Roosevelt and Saladin. Good start as we grab four cities on turn 1 of the war. During this two-front war, Saladin peace vassals to Brennus, and it turns into a three front war. Stupid mechanic.

Most focus was on Roosevelt, though, while the western front was largely just held (took a city from Saladin, who also started in crap land I see). Got some very nice cities from Roosevelt, he had stupid good land and tons of room to expand into. But eventually the bugger caps. We can then focus more on Brennus and Saladin, advancing both in the north (Saladin) and south (Brennus). It was probably a mistake to take as many cities from Saladin that early, because apparently peace vassals are really hesitant to release themselves. Took city after city from Brennus, but he refused to cap, and Saladin was down to two cities now (one offshore). Eventually Brennus was ready to cap, but he only had two cities then. And we had moved in on his three remaining cities that turn, plus Saladin's last mainland city. I therefore took them all, killed off Brennus, and capped 1-island-city Saladin. Only Elizabeth left and she had founded about 78 cities on her large landmass to the south. We kill some longbows that were moving from her core towards some barb captured ones, and take two cities from her. She was willing to cap as we were moving into her core.

Had gotten circumnavigation at this point and discovered some lands in the so-called new world, plus all those English island states, but why deal with that when we could just cap them all. Overall a fun map. The economy was in tatters after the early wars, but it happened to be fortunate that we sort-of grabbed horses, as that allowed a Cuir game. Okay, it was a little messy to get them back from clear culture-tile loss, but once Justinian capped it was easy to whip out Cuirs with Police State. I built Mids + GLH early on after all, before/while/after Axe-rushing Gandhi.

Oh yes. First time I've ever done this, but Saladin had the AP and would have surely stopped the war with us outside its gates. So I razed it to the ground! Hurt my feeling to raze a nice double-food size 14 city, but what are you gonna do.. The resolution actually failed by 3 votes in the inter-turn -- but that was because the city was razed and Saladin thereby lost a pile of votes. Otherwise it would have passed and given us a ton of unhappiness, because we captured many Buddhist cities, plus Saladin had spammed us with missionaries.

Some pictures

Spoiler :

Silly Justy city got to 60%, and I missed it. Result: High revolt chance, and it revolted during the war, and we lost the horses (but traded it right back again)

Loved Delhi. Such a kicksass city! Running 12 specialists and still serving prawn sandwiches and fresh salmon to all its citizens.

About barbs and WB.

Spoiler :

Forgot to give barbs archery. Once I managed to uncover the land, it turned out that Justinian, Roosevelt and Elizabeth had captured several barb cities. Presumably they had archers by then, but hard to know. Have forgotten this a few times before too, but it's usually not an issue, but here I think it was. There is so much free land/jungle for especially Roosevelt to freely REX into, and these areas got a handful of barb cities. AIs get huge bonuses against them anyway, so can pretty easily kill archer defended cities too, but at least it's a slight challenge then.

 

[Fish Man]

t176 space update, @dankok8

Spoiler :

Capped Sally, the last AI we'll war, and now I have 42 cities and just less than 40% land. Only settled 2 spots so far in the new world. Terra is insane. Thanks for the 1400 or so land tiles, @AcaMetis - by the end of the game I'll most likely reach 5000 bpt...

Spoiler :

Protective grenadiers were no match for combat five + march cavalry. I really love charismatic!

Spoiler :

Tech situation:

Spoiler :

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

And that's with High sealevel, too! I knew a large chunk of the land was taken up by the New World and wouldn't be relevant until Astronomy (or more likely never, since neither horses or cannons can swim across the ocean ), but even so I set it to High Sealevel after seeing just how many land tiles there were. Even now I'm not sure if Terra on High Sealevel is comparable to a standard sized Fractal map on Low or Medium sealevel. Unfortunately sinking the New World doesn't update the land tiles counter, so...I'unno .

 

[elitetroops]

@AcaMetis

Spoiler :

When you save the WB save and load as scenario the land tile counter updates.

 

[chinemol]

just won conquest 1820 AD. Noble + huts. Bad date, but, couldn't resist wonderspamming and grabbing chunks of land. Wiped gandhi (vasal of roose) and roose (engineering + muskets, strangely it was effective). caped lizzy just before she got redcoats (cannons + rifles and some cav). could prevent brennus, saladin, justinian from caping one another during the game, so easy ending. the start though, wasn't. reloaded after SIP and settled on the first wine tile to the north... still much to learn, but enjoying this.

 

[Zavior]

still much to learn, but enjoying this.

You have come to the right place!