Nobles' Club 276: Frederick of Germany

[krikav]

Spoiler T215 :

Had two GGenerals that I attached to two sets of Cavalry that where at 8/10. Had one lone HA that was still around too, so that got attached for free upgrade.
Next General I added some 9/10 Cavalry too, as I was out of 8/10.

Declared here, but when I did I lost quite some resource trades, and cities where also starting to cry about not wanting to fight brothers in faith, so I revolted to Nationalism/Free religion and got 2 turns of anarchy to sort things out.

Got Physics from Charly.

Couldn't get anything better from capitulation, but I then traded steam+rifling for Milsci+communism and ate two more turns of anarchy.
49 Cavalry now, 34 dead so far. So only lost 19 more against August.

No time to waste, go against Pericles here.
My western front was abit thin, but I had drafted some rifles in that region. Since churchil is dead I can draft all of his cities right out of anarchy to get military police there too, very nice.
Got these two cities turn1, cost some cavalry.

Making progress in the middle. A few turns later when I had about 8 airships up I went in for the kill.
T202 I got bio for AL with August, and T205 I gave Gilga AL for steel too.

34 Cavalry was dead when I declared on Pericles, and 55 now. So I lost 21 against him (and 5 rifles too).
15+19+21 Cavalry for 3 AIs!

Empire overview after some shuffling and buildup.

And onwards to the next target.

 

[krikav]

GG!

Spoiler T238 :

I kind of want to tech, but at the same time I want to build units to bump up power too. I make sure to draft 3 infantry every turn though.

Fastest victory would probably have been to just take a few more of Washingtons cities, was up at 60% land before gifting these cities back.

These poor sods are wanting for oil.
Pericles just finished flight for me, so I swapped to US now to rushbuy a bunch of airfields for airlifts.

Gilga took forever to talk even when I was at 10 times his power.
This turn I airlifted one panzer into each of the 3-4 cities I had taken, and then I gifted the cities back and then I could airlift one more unit into each city.

Think it was Gilgamesh culture that expanded over Charlys former territory that tripped me over the limit.
My carriers had just arrived to the scene but didn't have time to do anything.

Quite a spike during the upgrade phase and annihilation of England.

 

[konata_LS]

GG!

Spoiler T238 :

I kind of want to tech, but at the same time I want to build units to bump up power too. I make sure to draft 3 infantry every turn though.
View attachment 597080

Fastest victory would probably have been to just take a few more of Washingtons cities, was up at 60% land before gifting these cities back.
View attachment 597081


These poor sods are wanting for oil.
Pericles just finished flight for me, so I swapped to US now to rushbuy a bunch of airfields for airlifts.
View attachment 597082

Gilga took forever to talk even when I was at 10 times his power.
This turn I airlifted one panzer into each of the 3-4 cities I had taken, and then I gifted the cities back and then I could airlift one more unit into each city.
View attachment 597083

Think it was Gilgamesh culture that expanded over Charlys former territory that tripped me over the limit.
My carriers had just arrived to the scene but didn't have time to do anything.
View attachment 597084

Quite a spike during the upgrade phase and annihilation of England.
View attachment 597088
View attachment 597087

Spoiler :

Wow it's impressive indeed

Would you mind explaining a little about the tech trading in Classical and Medieval eras? For instance, after writing, did you go for aesthetics and trade for alphabet? Did you give Music to AIs for some medieval techs like feudalism or machinery?

In terms of diplomacy, in the early game, did you convert to Churchill's religion or wait for AC's religion? And how did you prevent a potential DoW from a Cautious neighbour, before getting them to pleased? Since there is a Copper near London, if Churchill gets early access to Copper, he might start plotting. The early diplomacy often makes me very confused.

In Renaissance era, when preparing a Cav attack, did you self-tech Gunpowder-PP-RP-Rifling, or did you manage to get some of these techs via trading?

When you attacked Pericles, he already got Rifling. What decided you to charge your Cavs towards Peri's Riflemen? Did you send some Grens along with Cavs for stack protection?

Sorry for so many questions, because your gameplay is so astonishing that some noobs like me can discover plenty of things to learn

 

[krikav]

@konata_LS

Tech trading.

Spoiler :

Tech trading is almost always very situational and depends a whole lot on whats the current available deals at the time. Much is decided on a grander scale "Do I want to keep pace slow..? Whom can I afford to boost? Who do I leave out in the cold?" etc. Here we are on a large continent (4 of us here, 3 AIs unknown) and in such situations I like to trade like a madman, because that way when I get in touch with the others they are likely in the stoneage.

I was planning on going CoL as my first classical tech, but when I finished meditation August got that so I fell back to aestethics.
T98 I finished that. Aest+med for alpha with Church right away.
T99 aesethics for math with August and alpha for IW with pericles. Then I saw I had iron contested with churchil in my forward city (both in second ring) so started a culture war for that iron which in the end turned out to be a mistake. That artist I spawned was one of the two to run the second GA.

Self-teched currency after that, and the same turn I'm about to finish it, pericles gets it too so I give him aestethics+150g to get Calendar, which I could since he now had currency.
Wanted calendar for the banana/sugar and was worried that I wouldn't get it so I just paid up.
Currency for monarchy with church next turn, and that was it for a while. Don't remember exact techpath after that, but I got both drama and CoL while waiting for a GSci to bulb philo, then I went for music. By the look of the screenshots, CoL has got to be a mistake if I didn't get that after music.

Spoiler T98 tech :

More techtrading...

Spoiler :

Drama+Music for feud with August.
Drama+CoL for 490g with Pericles.
Drama+CoL for MC with Church.

I went compass after that and I think I traded that for construction at some point but I have no screenshot of it. I might also have gotten part of CS.
Self teched paper, one bulb into edu, one into lib. Self-teched nationalism and lib MT T140.

Got Pericles up to friendly and traded alot with him. Monopoly techs that I then swinged on to the other two guys.

Got guilds/banking from August, tried to trade as little as possible with Church somewhere here as it became apparant that he would be my target.

 

[krikav]

@konata_LS
The rest of the questions:

Spoiler :

In terms of diplomacy, in the early game, did you convert to Churchill's religion or wait for AC's religion? And how did you prevent a potential DoW from a Cautious neighbour, before getting them to pleased? Since there is a Copper near London, if Churchill gets early access to Copper, he might start plotting. The early diplomacy often makes me very confused.

Church spread Hindu in almost all of my cities rather early on, but I stayed neutral for most of the game. Only converted to confu at T120+ when I did the first GA.
I did build 3-4 confu missionaries to shore up that religion as August got tired of sending missionaries after the first 2-3 he sent. Built those from the capitals monastery.
It was a long time when I wasn't a land target for either civ, and I didn't worry that much about a early attack.
Partly because I had alot of cities and I had copper and I had slavery, could whip out axes to defend if I saw that red fist, and partly because both August and to a lesser extent Churchil still had land to expand into.
Perhaps I was abit reckless with regard to safety in the early game, but it wasn't something I thought about. Church/August are such friendly fellows.

In Renaissance era, when preparing a Cav attack, did you self-tech Gunpowder-PP-RP-Rifling, or did you manage to get some of these techs via trading?

Gunpowder you almost always self tech in a cuir attack. After the librace when you gotten MT you build HAs and slowly tech gunpowder and get Gmerchants out.
I think I got PP in a trade, and when I did, I realized I still had alot of merchants in the pipeline for loads of cash, and that there would be a missmatch between gold and HAs, so I started teching RP->Rifling instead, throwing some excess commerce/gold away, both into the tech but also into the more expensive upgrades later on (to Cavalry instead of to Cuirs).
This is not normal, might be one of the only times I have done this. I know I have gone for cavalry in a iron-less tight spot previously but here Cavalry was an afterthought.

When you attacked Pericles, he already got Rifling. What decided you to charge your Cavs towards Peri's Riflemen? Did you send some Grens along with Cavs for stack protection?

Spoiler :

I decided to charge at him because after the war against August I still had 49 cavalry and where at a 1-1 power ratio with Pericles and the geography looked like August would take the blunt of the beating. I was abit worried about Pericles marching toward me in the north-west where I just had a few drafted rifles, but figured I could get a ceasefire in that case.

Here in Olmec I basically just glance at the city, see two rifles and a musket and figure that will cost me about 3 Cavalry. The south-western city had a few more rifles in it and would perhaps cost 4-5 Cavalry.
Easy pickings!

I didn't have any other units except a few rifles as stack protection. Toward the end I had a handful of infantry, all drafted. I think I did build 3-4 more Cavalry but other than that I didn't build units except for airships.
I hid behind August for protection, and resisted the urge to charge into Pericles land with small groups, and when i did charge into his mainland later rifles+Cavalry moved in tandem protecting each other.

Spoiler Screenshot :

Sorry for so many questions, because your gameplay is so astonishing that some noobs like me can discover plenty of things to learn

Never feel sorry about questions.
Gameplay here was rather astonishing, and alot of things where becuase the stars aligned. So in terms of learning, this game might not be the best to try mimic, but if anything it hints at what potentials are available.

 

[sampsa]

@konata_LS difficulty level matters a ton on tech trading dynamics. Even on immortal the human player can often sprint so much ahead quite quickly (like in jnebbe's game) that medieval trades are unimportant. Thus, the lower you get in difficulty the more important it is simply to manage your empire well and the game focuses less around what the AIs are doing and more about the player SimCitying his/her empire to grow and tech ahead as efficiently as possible.

Looking at your screenshots, a few things would make a big difference

• chop. This is by far the most important thing that will improve your success a ton. Put your chops mostly to settlers/workers so that you aren't stuck stagnating for a long period. Of course stagnating is OK if you have already grown to -cap
• settle . The sheep up north should probably be the 2nd city spot, but you haven't settled it by 500 AD
• don't build unnecessary roads. Every workerT is precious and roads don't really do much compared to say chopping, which generates 5/turn even before maths (1T to move to the forest, 3T to actually chop, 20/4=5)
• don't build unnecessary buildings. List of good buildings: granary. Everything else is situational

 

[crashmon]

@konata_LS why don't you try a shadow game at Monarch and/or Emperor.. You seem to be easily winning at Prince, and a Shadow game will really improve your game (I know it did mine). To be honest reading some of your play in this and other threads, I'd go straight for Emperor on a shadow game...

I know I have one going on which people can follow, but you learn so much more by actually playing one (but be prepared to have every decision scrutinized and analysed, but then this is what helps to learn)

 

[konata_LS]

@krikav

Spoiler :

Thanks for the precise answers! Your explanation makes me realise what I could have done better in this game.

Churchill is usually a peaceful neighbour. But about AC, I'm not sure if he can be trusted at Cautious. In an off-line game on Prince, I didn't share border with AC (Ramsy and Sury laid between AC and me) and had no religious conflicts. AC entered into WHEOOHRN mode, I thought he went after his WE Sury (border tensions + different religions), but AC's target turned out to be me: he gave me a very bad surprise with a stack of 20+ units, praets and cats, captured my best cottage city and still refused to talk. In despair I clicked on "Retire" . From that time I started doing some crazy things like self-tech archery, spam Axes in border cities, build all border cities on hill if possible, or even self-tech feudalism when surrounded by Monty, GK and Alex<-- I know it's crazy but just can't stop it .

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Yes, you're right. If I had chopped all these trees into workers instead of slow building them, the early development would have been much better. It was a real shame to leave the north sheep unsettled for many centuries. Thanks for pointing out my mistakes .

As you said, on lower difficulties like Noble or Prince, tech trading is less important than empire-management. Though sometimes I'm not sure about the timing of tech trading, or which tech should/shouldn't be given to AIs.

Spoiler Tech situation in 500 AD :

I really wanted to get Monarchy through trade, pillage my Copper/Iron and build cheap warriors for happiness under HR. But none of AIs had monarchy in 500AD, I had to build a Colosseum in my capital to make it grow to size 10

@crashmon

Spoiler :

Your shadow game was indeed successful and set a nice example for the players who want to improve and move up in difficulty. Certainly you learnt many things through your shadow games as well. Congratulations

In fact, my gameplay varies with leaders and neighbours: if I play as a strong leader (FIN or PHI, like Fred in this NC) or choose a civilisation with good starting techs (Egypt, Persia, Sumeria...), I usually handle the game well. But if I choose a leader with weak traits and weak starting techs (ex.: Toku or Charlie) and have some unit-spamming neighbours like Shaka or Monty, my game often becomes a desaster. So it's hard to say I can easily win on Prince.

 

[sampsa]

@konata_LS good observation on monarchy. While on deity people close to never self-tech monarchy, I think it's just such a great tech you should run for it quickly on lower difficulties, because the trading with AI is very unreliable. I remember a recent game here (I think it was @jnebbe 's emperor game) where in semi-isolation the neighboring AI refused to tech alphabet even close to 1000AD, which kinda ruined the whole tech path and bulbing plan... So I think up to immortal you shouldn't rely on trades at all, but of course take what you can.

Here you have stone though, and not sure if you built Mids (for representation, which is even better than HR). I would say it's the most important wonder (a lot better than GLH, unless a dream map for GLH) and you should nearly always go for it if you have stone. One of the biggest things is that it doesn't compete with expansion. You can safely get Mids after initial expansion to say 4-5 cities.

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

Up to T117, AD50, Immortal no huts

Now ran pas 600 AD

Spoiler :

Killed a good thing by going too wonder-heavy. Tried to get fancy with GL, slowing down some other priorities, and limited my access to iron by not expanding fast enough. Cuirs / cannons no longer possible for breakout.

Religion spread had me in Judaism with AC, which worked well, but no wars occurred, and Pericles peace-vassaled to Churchill. Churchill was annoyed towards me, and I switched to Hinduism when asked to prevent early DOW. AC was my backup iron source but was no longer willing to trade. Was able to Lib rifling because of my tech lead at the time, but that drastically slowed down my research, and I have maybe 10 cottages across my empire (none in my cap).

AC was still pre-gunpowder when I attacked with Cavs; took him easily enough but Cuirs probably would have been 40 years faster and would have been just as easy. Churchill and Pericles have rifling, and both like me well enough though my infrastructure is ****. About 30 turns for Astro, given I cant bulb it any more.

Need to decide whether to go Astro and quickly cap the stone-age Washington, or go cannons for Pericles and Churchill. Pericles beat me to SoL, though I wasted a GE on it in an attempt to bump my science after taking most of AC's land. Athens has SoL, University of Sankore, and Spiral Mineret, as well as a ~30 hold Holy City. So, a pretty juicy target and my 40ish Cavs could probably take it before Steel, if I dumped his defenses with a spy. Not sure if he would break away from Churchill in time for me to cap him soon enough to get peace with Churchill, who I'm not ready to take.

Decisions, decisions...

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

Up to Steel

Spoiler :

I was 1 turn away from launching an attack on Greece when 2 things happened: he teched Astro and I popped a G Sci to bulb most of Chemistry, and he settled a city expanding his borders delaying any attack from hitting Athens by another 2 turns (Would be 5-6 turn travel time for my 40 Cavs).

So I chickened out, built 15 Galleons,and wiped out Washington, who was still way behind. I capped him at then end with perfect timing, as he teched Mil Sci, which was a monopoly, and got Sci Method from Churchill with Steel (self-teched off ransack money from the war) + Mil Sci; also got 1700 gold from Pericles.

Pericles broke off from Churchill, and now I need to decide on pumping out cannons for a sea-invasion of Athens, or self-tech to Railroad for Mining corp (G engi in hand).

More decisions...

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

Spoiler :

won around 1750 or something like that. grabbed a few cities from Pericles, primarily Athens which had SoL, holy city with 35 gold and 6 (six!) great prophets. Got enough land around it to prevent culture issues and capped him. Founded Sushi there soon after, with biology as tribute from him and reaearch od the back of my now operational American colony with F Palace in place. Was about to found Mining inc. there to get a mega mega wall street spot (with priests + holy city + sids + mining inc. would have been amazing; still was without, of course) when Churchill founded it in London.

So instead of spreading some corps and light-speeding to an attempted diplo victory, I had to crush Churchill. Never got to industrial age with Freddy before; those assembly plants at +200% production speed (incl forge, organized, and a quick swap to org religion at the beginning of a golden age) are pretty tasty. Swapped to fasc, vassalage, and theocracy at the end of my GA, researched industrialism and traded for combustion with Pericles to pump out panzers at 3 pop from a cold-whip. 20 cities on the mainland meant 3 turns of that I started the war with about 50 panzers, and got another 15 per turn or so after that. 5 turnd of war against protective infantry and it was done.

Could have done a lot of things different; definitely too wonder-heavy in the beginning, focused or corp too much after they no longer made sense (made some bade great person choices and could have thus bulbed better), and especially should have more quickly shifted gears to intercontinental war after seeing good land from the 3 backward civs.

I had one major reload based on a foolish early attack on Pericles I attempted before cannons, so going to call this one more a learning exercise than a clean win. Unfortunately I love the idea of corps at the moment, but as I saw someone say on the forums in another thread - they're more of a "win harder" technique than a "win faster" technique.

Thanks for keeping on the Nobles club! Its going to be fun to go back and see what others did, and in particular whether

Spoiler :

the 3 civ's off-continent were as backwards for everyone. Only 1 wonder wasn't built on MY mainland (probably 30% were built by me), and Wash had no religion by the time of contact when I reached him, and I didnt beeline optics at all.

 

[Fish Man]

It took me a bit, but I finally got the dream science victory on this map - t238 spaceship arrival, and just for fun I spent the next 15 turns rolling over everyone else with modern armor.

Spoiler :

The key is horse archer rushing Churchill - you can get a lot of techs by beating it out of an unwilling victim, and also his land is far more abundant in commerce than yours; else you struggle to tech anything by the medieval era.

Once you start a cuirstomp, you can then also whip from twice as many cities and as much food. This is important because Rome gets scary big in the mid-game, 15-20 cities if left unchecked. Pericles is no slouch either. With 15-20 cities of your own to whip from, you can build a far larger army.

After filling out the continent with 46 or so cities it was basically gg. This was also the first non-corps standard speed map where I reached 7000 beakers/turn...org assembly plants are really something else .

May post pics later when I'm less exhausted.