Nobles' Club 277: Joao II of Portugal

[sampsa]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Using your conversion analogy, I would estimate that averaging 10-20 more pop, per turn, for those 65 turns would still be incredibly difficult.

Hmm, I don't think it's really that far off. I have played only up to T93, I'm at 35pop. The difference should increase dramatically from this point. Oh I also realized you made an error, T60 to T115 is 55T, not 65.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Hmm, I don't think it's really that far off. I have played only up to T93, I'm at 35pop. The difference should increase dramatically from this point. Oh I also realized you made an error, T60 to T115 is 55T, not 65.

Spoiler :

Yes, you're right. 55 turns is the correct number; 1700 commerce still stands (55*(50+12)/2 = 1705). The difference in population should not increase dramatically, since the GLH player can afford to expand wider while waiting for Monarchy. I do not have a T93 save. I can offer you the following 55 pop save at T115?

Otherwise, I think I can only offer to play the game again at Emperor, with all the fore-knowledge bias that would introduce.

 

[krikav]

Checked the autosave and this is the 1AD situation I had in my game.

Spoiler 1 AD situation :

 

[sampsa]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

The difference in population should not increase dramatically, since the GLH player can afford to expand wider while waiting for Monarchy.

Yes, but growing bigger is still quite a lot cheaper than building more cities.

As to the rest of your message - for what purpose? It's already clear that GLH does well because you can settle intercontinental cities, something you couldn't have known when you made the strategical decision. I will check your 1AD save once I get there. I'm shocked if I'm under 75pop at that point.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T1 Demographics :

Whenever I start coastal, I'm trying to make a habit of checking demographics T0. I did this when starting this game too.
Checking the "Land Area" here AI worse has 7 and AI best has 8 tiles. Average is 7.66 tiles, so total tiles is 46. 46 minus the best and the worst is 31, and 31 divided by the last 4 AIs is 7.75.
This made me guess that there is 3-4 AIs that start coastal, and that if I want to go GLH I would have to sacrifice alot to get it.

Spoiler T15 offshore sighted :

This I spotted T15, I know there is _something_ over there, but even getting culture to get there would take ages. This is something I planned to possibly do with a caste artist. But in the real game, I never even ended up settling this spot.

Spoiler T24 boats :

By turn 24, before I have even finished BW, I have seen two AIs workboats. Shortly after that Alex shows up with a workboat too.
And with this at hand, I don't really think it's a worthwhile gamble to go for GLH.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Spoiler T1 Demographics :

Whenever I start coastal, I'm trying to make a habit of checking demographics T0. I did this when starting this game too.
Checking the "Land Area" here AI worse has 7 and AI best has 8 tiles. Average is 7.66 tiles, so total tiles is 46. 46 minus the best and the worst is 31, and 31 divided by the last 4 AIs is 7.75.
This made me guess that there is 3-4 AIs that start coastal, and that if I want to go GLH I would have to sacrifice alot to get it.
View attachment 597932

Spoiler T15 offshore sighted :

This I spotted T15, I know there is _something_ over there, but even getting culture to get there would take ages. This is something I planned to possibly do with a caste artist. But in the real game, I never even ended up settling this spot.
View attachment 597934

Spoiler T24 boats :

By turn 24, before I have even finished BW, I have seen two AIs workboats. Shortly after that Alex shows up with a workboat too.
And with this at hand, I don't really think it's a worthwhile gamble to go for GLH.
View attachment 597933

Spoiler :

Guess it’s just a matter of exploration by turns then. The vision from the settle spot in your T24 screenshot shows the same effect as your T15 screenshot! Splitting the clam and knowing there were 2 indications of landmasses flipped me over to the other side on the GLH decision.

 

[konata_LS]

Prince level, normal speed. NHNE. From AD 920 to the end.

Spoiler :

Accepted Mansa's peaceful vassal request. Took Astro with Lib. The first settlement overseas was this city. Finally got my iron

Since it was the first time I played Terra map, I sent carracks to explore, just for my curiosity . I really wanted to know what a Terra map looked like.

After Astro, I went Guilds-Engineering-Gunpowder-Chemistry-Steel, then PP-SM-Communism. Switched to SP. Built trebs while waiting for Steel, generated a GM to upgrade trebs to cannons.
The new world had cows, spices and rice, although I didn't see any gem nor silver. Not bad. I planned to settle more cities in the new world after the wars, because We Have Enough On Our Hands Right Now.
Enough

But when the wars were over, the game also ended :

Terra can be a fun map. Thanks for showing something that I never knew

 

[sampsa]

T115

Spoiler :

Bulbed philo with the only GS I've created, then went towards music. Just kept on growing cities in anticipation for the upcoming golden age. Music in 2T, then towards lib I suppose. 84 pop.

Mansa finally going for calendar so perhaps can delete some of the warriors soon. Paying 16 upkeep, which is why the tech pace isn't stellar. Well, golden age should help.

 

[konata_LS]

@jnebbe

Spoiler :

Your reason of settling Lagos is understandable. You remember "settle the food", and Lagos has two food resources - fish and sugar. But both food resources cannot be used immediately: fish needs border pop (Joao is not CRE) while sugar needs IW (to clean the jungle) and Calendar (to build the plantation). So it is not a good site early, but such a spot is very powerful after Medieval era.

I settled Faro at the same place as your Lagos. After Guilds, Chemistry and Communism, under State Property and Caste System, this city became a military power house:

But this city was founded very late, in 900 AD.

Your choice of your Lagos city is very good - two food resources, some hills to mine, and some flat lands for workshop. The only downside is the timing of founding this city. If you found Lagos after CoL (adopt Caste System and hire an artist during 3 turns for a border pop), your city will soon become useful to your economy and production.

@krikav

Spoiler :

Amazing game as always, and congrats for the victory!
Securing iron was one of the game-changing success in your game. With iron, you built x-bows and pikes to attack Mansa and captured some shining wonders from him. Horse was not important in this map for a war in Classical/Medieval era, as no one would throw HAs or Knights into Mansa's war elephants.

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Self-teching Monarchy looks a good choice in this map . Your capital was larger and better than mine around T81. I didn't have saves or screenshots in my early game but I remembered all my cities remained less than 6 population for a long time.
You may capture GLH later ; if so, delaying Corporation would be worth considering . In my game, Zara built it for me.

 

[sampsa]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Oh I didn't realize you could see the island to the south so early. Since I settled 1S, the desert spot was already killed to I didn't move a unit on it in a long time. I think that makes GLH-play a lot better, at least on lower levels. On deity I've learned to be very conservative with wonder plays, as losing it just hurts your game so much.

Your position is nice, good tech pace even with a relatively undeveloped empire. Did you forget resource trades though?

 

[dankok8]

To 700 BC (turn 87)

Spoiler :

7 cities. Got beat to Oracle by 1 turn in 950 BC because I was slacking. Don't mind 160 gold so will just take it on the chin and keep playing considering I sunk something like 5 turns into it so not much damage there. Monarchy is done and cities are about to grow vertically although I have 2-3 more sites to settle as well in the next few turns. Infrastructure is also coming up. Mansa actually declared war on Alex and left a really nice barb city nearby which I sniped with Axes. Anasazi has Rice under the jungle, Pigs and all grassland and it's coastal... GLH makes every coastal city break even right from the start. I think with 10ish large cities, research will really take off and given that there are no economic leaders apart from Mansa here who I can always take down a peg, this should be a very very winnable game. At least by Space if all else fails.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Oh I didn't realize you could see the island to the south so early. Since I settled 1S, the desert spot was already killed to I didn't move a unit on it in a long time. I think that makes GLH-play a lot better, at least on lower levels. On deity I've learned to be very conservative with wonder plays, as losing it just hurts your game so much.

Your position is nice, good tech pace even with a relatively undeveloped empire. Did you forget resource trades though?

Spoiler :

Indeed. Thanks for the reminder! I have some bad habits on diplomacy that I have yet to unlearn.

On a related note, do you know if there's a version of those UI upgrades you and @krikav have that is compatible with multiplayer? Thanks!

 

[user330977]

Turn 141/750

Spoiler :

Entered the Classical Era via Monarchy. Shortly after was able to get some trades and now I possess IW and Alphabet plus some backfill techs. I was also able to build the Oracle and chose Code of Laws for my free technology, founding Confucianism in the process. I had no spreaqd of foreign religion in the meantime so I have adopted it and will try spread it around to gain a few allies. I can also gun for the barbarian city to the east now since I have IW to improve its land. Here's the situation so far:

Coimbra is my Holy City. I play in German but I'm sure you can work out the translation - you have founded the Confucian religion.

I founded Lagos as soon as I got IW. It's a wonder spot for cottaging so an army of workers is hard at work.

For some reason, Mansa has totally stagnated. Looks like he crippled himself with Djenne as a jungle city without IW to help him develop it. I sense weakness, and my power rating is favourable.

Ethiopia and Korea are developing well, save for Lalibela which has an... interesting placement to say the least.

Can't see much of Japan or England yet, but both are lagging somewhat.

I think my next priority is to take Mansa out - his rampant tech trading could be a problem. With him out of the way, it looks like I would have the entire southern peninsula to myself. In my games Zara tends to be a bit of a monster, so perhaps I can turn Wang Kon or Churchill against him somehow... Interesting game.

Kind regards,
Ita Bear

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Glad to see that the AIs are continuing the long-standing tradition of ignoring good city spots (Mansa has coastal Copper+Pig just to his north, IIRC) to instead settle absolute trash as close to the player as physically possible . I seriously considered moving Mansa up a few tiles just to help avoid him bulldozing his way into (if not through) the jungle, and thought that surely the AI couldn't be that stupid.

My mistake. The AI is always that stupid .

 

[krikav]

@AcaMetis

Spoiler :

I enjoyed it! It was really nice to have some breaks on Mansa. And I also suspect that people who attack at a later date, say with cannons or cuirs, will have a harder time against him since he was just about to take off when I attacked. His jungle was down and things where starting to improve.

I kind of suspect that Alex could become a very potent threat in some alternative history games here too, he had alot of units and Wang was very small.

 

[user330977]

Spoiler :

Played through to the early medieval era - I got a free Great Artist from being the first to research Music. I built an army of swords, axes and catapults and took down Mansa Musa with little trouble as he never got beyond three cities. They are now under new ownership.
Interesting situation in the north. Zara and Churchill had a joint war on Alex and beat him back a couple of cities. Annoyingly, Wang Kon has peace-vassalled to Zara. I never did like how vassals work in this game...
Map of the world thus far. Really not sure how that Japanese city ended up SW of Ethiopia. I'm settling the island to the south and shortly I'll be on my way to the new world to see what lays in store.

 

[krikav]

@Ita Bear

Spoiler :

Any chance you can piggyback abit on the war they have against Alex? Perhaps snipe a city or two?
How is relations with Toku? Any chance you could try to backstab Churchil and have Toku join in too?

It's always annoying when you have a nice army of veterans, for the war to slow down. More war!!

 

[dankok8]

To 1 AD (turn 115).

Spoiler :

9 cities about to build a 10th on the island to the south and pulling a decent 200 bpt. Gonna settle a GM next turn and have enough gold to deficit research for 20 or so turns. Lisbon is size 14 and several other cities size 10ish. First priority is CS then Optics beeline. Not killing the AI techwise but research speed is good enough. Diplo situation is good with all the big guys liking me. Wang is the one heathen on the continent. Mansa is still fighting Alex and Zara is fighting (killing) Wang. The only trouble-mongers Toku and Alex are weak. Long-term plan is probably a space win. Zara seems like the biggest threat long-term. Anyways no Horse or Iron for Cuirs... .. so no wars until Industrial if at all. Gonna settle the islands and the other continent and just grow.

 

[dankok8]

To 860 AD (turn 153). In a pretty dominant position.

Spoiler :

Settled much of the southern islands that have seafood. Got Astro around 500 AD and about 6 turns from Liberalism now. Didn't use any bulbing in this game. Popped two GM's which I used for trade missions. Going to beeline Communism and just settle everything. Even now with distance maintenance and colonial expenses the cities on the islands are growing my economy thanks to GLH + overseas trade routes. SP will get rid of that pesky distance maintenance. I'll probably have something like 30 cities in this game.

#1 in GNP, #1 in crop yield and #1 in population by almost double over the next AI. On the tech screen I also have Education and Astro over everyone. Mansa is willing to declare war on Zara for Optics and Paper. I'm thinking about doing it. Zara loves me anyways and this will set the two big dogs back further while I just settle lands and grow. If I finish this game it will be Space. I'm tired of winning most of my games by Domination.

The power of HR:

Spoiler :

My Bureau capital would be size 9 instead of size 20 without HR. Heck even with Rep if I built the Mids it would be size 12. HR rocks. Lisbon could have actually been size 22-23 if I worked the northern Corn (given to Evora) but I have no need to grow it further because I'm not in Caste so I can't run more Scientists. I need to stay in Slavery to rush Settlers and ships. I accidentally got Hunting in a trade with Zara so I'm building Archers instead of Warriors now. Oh well I can still 1 turn them and in case someone attacks me out of the blue (unlikely...) I will upgrade to Longbows! I am intentionally avoiding Feudalism for now because then I can't build Archers any more.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

@dankok8

Responding to "The power of HR". You have a big capital city. The image is murky, are you suffering unhealth? Does the bureaucracy civic increase commerce from trade routes? Is a feitoria worthwhile?