Nobles' Club 308: Shaka of the Zulu

[MasterofDisasta]

Continued to 1190 AD

Spoiler :

I did carry out my plan to attack Izzy. Unfortunately she was not the soft target I hoped for. While she held off Feudalism and longbows for a crazily long time she did have macemen, pikeman, and a few crucial castles which forced me to sue for peace after taking 2 cities. While catching up in tech I missed the chance to trade for Machinery by one turn and had to slowly tech up to engineering (for trebs) myself.

The war was slow and inefficient. I lack experience in Medieval wars - I usually opt for a peaceful recovery phase after a rush. I had the wrong ratio of seige : units and that cost me at least 5 turns of progress.

In the end I settled for taking 4 cities from Izzy and capping her once I had Madrid - home to a 22gpt Buddhorsehocky shrine + several wonders and settled great people. With Izzy added to the empire it is time to plot out how to finish capping the rest.

In the meantime I was able to lib chemistry. I would have held out for steel but Charly is now able to research lib and there is no reason to risk him taking it.

Tech situation:

Sitting Bull rushed Nationalism and will probably beat me to Taj. Both he and Julius dont want to trade with my any more due to WFYABTA. I think I can use Izzy to backfill a few techs since she will still trade with me. My next target is Steel which I should be able to get in ~15 turns (quicker if I can rustle up some gold from trades/conquest).

Charly and Suleiman have been in a fairly pointless war for the last 1,000 years. Suleiman has been taking the field but not making any progress.

His tech is crazy out of date because everyone hates his religion. He has only just grabbed Feudalism after 1100 AD!

Because of this I am using Asoka's old lands to whip out an army to capitulate him. Im hoping I can deal with him before cannons are online and then immediately pivot to Sitting Bull. Although SB is tech leader his army is fairly small and he only has 8 cities so I think he should fall quickly.

 

[MasterofDisasta]

@jnebbe

Spoiler :

Ugh that is what I hate about AP.

Izzy tried the Diplo win vote at least 3 times in my game but luckily she was the only Buddhist so everyone hated her and she never got a supporting vote. She ended up just wasting all her AP powers on it.

 

[Izuul]

Hey hey hey, Iz! Loading from the save has not worked for me in many years...and, yes, I recall being a bit peeved back then but just used to it now. However, this recent thread in the Tech from, specifically @f1rpo (I've pinged him twice now today), may help solve that problem. I have not tried it myself.

Do note that with the Steam version you should install the Beta version if you have not already. In the library go to Properties > Betas > choose "original release" from the drop down. Steam will reinstall stuff. This reverts back to the original assets steam jacked up a few years ago for their own MP platform and is better for mods.

Also, while you need the Steam client running, I recommend running BTS from the exe rather than the library. Also, run in Win 7 compatibility mod.

And welcome back!!! Hope the fam is doing well!!

Seems nothing works with the Steam version. I should've gone with my gut and picked it up from GOG, but Steam is just so convenient... Thanks for the help though! We are all doing well here and i hope you are too.

As for my game on Deity:

Spoiler :

Perhaps i was too ambitious playing on Deity after so long away from the game. I went for elepult against Asoka using the double gem city and some cottages at the cap for commerce. Actually self-teched IW to get it ASAP which is something I never do on Deity (really even Immortal for that matter), and perhaps it wasn't the correct play either, but there are so many jungled resources here that i thought going for Alpha and trading for IW might be too slow. Attack was fairly late, but was working and i had Asoka pretty much broken and was on the verge of mopping up all of his cities when Charlie came after me. I saw it coming, but there wasn't a great deal i could do about it at that point. I had chosen to adopt the religion of Spain and Native America (after a demand to do so) to avoid having an angry Izzy at my back. At that time Charlie was busy fighting Mehmed, but he won that war pretty quickly and i became the obvious next target. He wasn't very big in terms of cities, but he had a big stack with a lot of promoted units from his war with the Ottomans. I made peace with Asoka and attacked Charlie's stack with all of my cats the turn before he was going to declare on me. He lost pretty much all of it attacking me, but wiped me out as well, effectively ending my game around 600 AD.

I may have still lost even had i won the war with Asoka without interference, but the AI were all pretty small on this map, so i think, even if i were behind in tech and development, I could've come back and won once i got 12-13 cities online.

 

[MasterofDisasta]

Domination Victory 1545 AD on Immortal

Spoiler :

War with Mehmed was incredibly easy. His stack was already besieging Charly and Julius was already attacking him (and took 1 city) in the East.

I was able to grab 2 cities on Turn 2 of the war.

I needed to bribe Charly out so Mehmed wouldn't cap to him.

This gold plus the conquest gold was enough to get me to Steel.

I waited to get one more city from Mehmed then cap'd him. This left him with just the capital. It is setup as an excellent buffer against Caesar.

Healed up and then immediately attacked Charly. I failed to notice he had signed a defensive pact with Caesar. Whoops! Mehmed's capital will hopefully hold Caesar back while I conquer Charly.

Took 2 cities from Charly and then signed peace so I could focus on Caesar. Mehmed's culture made Caesars border cities easy to access and after a few turns he capp'd as well.

Charly capp'd after a 4 turn war and allowed me to trade for a few more techs.

Finally Sitting Bull was surrounded and it was time to take him out. My reinforcements from the homelands had been gathered on his borders during the Western wars. I Dow'd him immediately since it seemed stubborness to talk would be the limiting factor.

I nabbed 3 cities off Sitting Bull but before I could get him to talk I went over the land domination limit.

Final thoughts

Spoiler :

Elepult worked out well and gained me a dominant position. It helped that all of the AI's stayed at a moderate size and noone got too big.

Charly and Mehmed did me a big favor by locking each other up in a war for so long. Made it so I didn't have to worry about a backstab.

Better scouting could have secured me much better early city spots - need to work on that.

I still need practice on Medieval warfare - the treb war could have been smoother.

This was one of my better Immortal Domination dates so I can't complain too much.

 

[chinemol]

Seems nothing works with the Steam version. I should've gone with my gut and picked it up from GOG, but Steam is just so convenient... Thanks for the help though! We are all doing well here and i hope you are too

torrent it from the popular torrent site if you want. works pretty well unless you want to do online multiplayer stuff

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Spoiler :

Perhaps i was too ambitious playing on Deity after so long away from the game. I went for elepult against Asoka using the double gem city and some cottages at the cap for commerce. Actually self-teched IW to get it ASAP which is something I never do on Deity (really even Immortal for that matter), and perhaps it wasn't the correct play either, but there are so many jungled resources here that i thought going for Alpha and trading for IW might be too slow. Attack was fairly late, but was working and i had Asoka pretty much broken and was on the verge of mopping up all of his cities when Charlie came after me.

Good attempt !

Spoiler :

Going Elepult may feel "safe" but it is actually very expensive and, despite the lush land, we have a very commerce-poor starting area before Alphabet. I feel it's easy to underestimate the cost of going Construction (vs teching up).
The lay of the land makes it so it's difficult to both secure the jungled resources and keep the maintenance under control until Iron is in. We'd want something like 5 cities to lock the resources, investing in the future. The trouble is those 5 cities don't come with corns and rivers. They come with jungled bananas, jungled spices, jungled gems. So, they're a hard delay towards Alpha/Iron.

The gems can be unlocked relatively early (yes, Alpha trade is probably the way to go). The other resources can be unlocked roughly around the same time as war elephants.
I wonder if that isn't an extra issue with the Construction line. If I'm unlocking 10 specials that come with considerable food and commerce benefits, do I want to whip an army or, say, tech up to Civil Service ? I feel like investing in a workforce and improving the land faster may be better than going into a Construction war.

It was unfortunate that Charlie won his war and proceeded to DoW you. This is a game changer.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Spoiler Deity T151 :

Posting a few screen shots from the results of my Impi rush and recovery:

A few tricks that help this process.

1. Talk to AI to find out who has resources - by checking what unit they boast about
2. Shift - G with a unit that has fortification capabilities and you can figure out where cities are
3. AI will build the strongest unit they have - if you cut off metal from an AI that has horse, they will build chariots despite chariots being horsehocky against Impi. This is why this strategy works for Zulu but not for chariots.
4. AI city queue will not update the turn you attack - builds are committed - strike at the heart of the empire
5. AI cities will queue developmental buildings in a war - strike into the capital and it makes your job much easier.
6. The safety reasoning around mobility is broken - use this to your advantage to take workers and hit cities they don't expect

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

@ ariosto :

Spoiler :

This seems good, good job getting the elephants and securing the NE corner. I'm not too sure about your tech level. I suspect you only have Writing + Masonry or did you manage to research Aesthetics ?
If you did not... maybe it was premature to take peace with Asoka, especially so since he is still at war with Charlemagne.
Sure, you would dig a deeper hole in your economy but :
- you could still capture Bombay (and other cities ?) ;
- amass more war success to extort more techs. <-- I think this is the crucial point, getting him to offer you all he has. Alphabet and Iron Working, in particular (gotta clear that jungle in the NE).

Now, you have options. The Pyramids are excellent and should allow you to catch up.
However, finishing Asoka (while he's still at war) and building up Libraries + hiring scientists are two objectives that are at odds with each other.
The fact he's still at war... I believe you should take advantage of it. Do some libraries, ok, but don't go full on recovery just yet. Actually, if you're DoWing next turn, consider not completing the libraries in uMgungundlovu and maybe even in Ulundi and going Axemen instead. The one in Ulundi is fine, I suppose.
Capture gold will take you closer to Iron Working and, eventually, Calendar, than those Libraries.

Given that, you could also consider Military Police as a way to help you push through Asoka.
Keep an eye on the 2 barbarian cities in the NW. They would be a great addition to your Empire. I'm not sure when your peace treaty expires ; I'd definitely make them a priority if you're stuck in peace for some more turns. I think your stack is in Delhi, yes ? So, Navajo looks very far away. You could go West first, then Bombay, then make your way up north to the end of the peninsula.

You probably need to reposition some workers to help chop around Delhi/Pataliputra and help get the burst of units you need.

At this point, with a dead neighbour and 10 cities, I think Calendar is a better mid-term tech target than Construction.

I took the hint and played to the same point (1 turn away, t84) :

Spoiler :

A Bronze rush from 2 cities doesn't mean the same thing as a Bronze rush from 3 cities. Probably an earlier attack date and an earlier dead opponent. However, rushing from 3 cities comes with its own set of advantages, like :

Spoiler :

Swordsmen ! This is the DoW turn. I capture Seville then Salamanca with the reinforcements, before it becomes troublesome as a hilled city with culture, units and walls.
Having 3 cities means better sustained production, so there's that.

Spoiler :

The units from Seville have healed up and moved on. Impis are used as scouts and help hold chokepoints.
We favour flatland cities with 20% culture like Seville and Cordoba to kill production.

Spoiler :

Like Toledo, too, which we target with reinforcements. This is the same turn, by the way. It's been a while since I split stacks of Axemen...
Barcelona was shrined in 1440 BC and has 60% culture. Is it good ? Is it bad ? It goes both ways.
We can see uMgungundlovu doing its thing in the corner. I started the attack with 4 workers and captured a settler. All cities are just working hammers at happy cap (or size 3 in the case of uMgung).

So, one of the benefits of the 2 cities attack could be that you would avoid the STRIKE :

Spoiler :

It was a while ago since I went on strike, too. I kept my slider at 0% during that time, which was most probably a big mistake. I could have researched Mysticism, for example.
Barcelona was captured at a heavy cost.
Fortunately, there's a saying like "Developping nations should work together to catch up."

Spoiler :

And Isabella agrees.
Madrid is on a hill. I'll take peace, get a settler out, a couple workers and settle the gems, consolidate the economy before killing the charming lady.
Only 2 other AIs have Alphabet, so that deal gives me that tech over 3 different AIs. Peace means my Spanish cities are suddenly happy and the commerce situation isn't that dire.
Barcelona coming out of revolt also represents an instant +15 gold per turn due to its shrine. The shrine + the peace deal are huge compensations.

Stats :

Spoiler :

I also built 5 Impis and lost 4 of those. I could check the logs but probably half of my lost Axemen died trying to cut the walls of Barcelona, maybe 4 of them.

Oh shoot, I don't know how I missed this.

Spoiler :

Getting the tech is a nice bonus. I had hoped for as such from Isabella, but couldn't not do so. Maybe I could've starved out a city?

Waiting for the shrine...now that's a thought.

 

[ariosto]

Rage quitted T112, when I bulbed philosophy, and both Isa and Julius demanded it on the very turn. So this will be my third (and last) attempt.

Spoiler Deity T109 :

@BornInCantaloup thanks for advices. I stopped building libraries everywhere, except capital.
Captured both norhern indian cities and took IW for peace. Then marched north and took both barbarian cities, so I have 11 total now.
Conquest gold, gems, gold and several 13 citizens helped me to tech Aest (T96). Unfortunately, almost everyone had it already, so I got only math and alpha for it. Next techs were myst->medi->priest->Col, and now I can bulb philosophy.
Empire:

The good news - there is world war now.

The bad news - SB is teching like beast. He converted to Bureaucracy 350BC. The others are behind, though.

With so many happinness, not so many food, aggressive trait and meh capital I think, this is draft game. I don't know, what is better - rifles + trebs or muskets + cannons. But I think, I'll try to win a game with one of these armies.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@ariosto :

Spoiler :

You're nearing the strike but you should be able to recover extremely quick once you get Currency + Calendar. (And will improve further as you clear the Indian riverside.)
I think you can use the STRIKE in order to research Sailing and get Calendar easy. First, spend a turn to trigger STRIKE, then go 100% research.
When the trades are unlocked you can use Anarchy (Judaism + Civic switches) to avoid disbanding units while your workers set you up.

Do you have a remaining standing army ? It would be tempting to side in some of those wars if you had. Maybe against Isabella or Mehmed.
If you don't, it's probably not worth the effort.

The situation looks promising overall, monopoly on Philo is an excellent grab

Make sure you have the worker count to keep up, those tiles aren't gonna improve by themselves.

edit :

Spoiler :

I'm probably wrong and the slider can't be raised if there are no gold reserves, despite the strike.
Still need to research Sailing, though.

I agree with your assessment that Drafting is appealing. No opinion on the better unit composition.

 

[ariosto]

Spoiler Deity T126 :

I think, I did a great job recovering economy. Traded CoL for currency, sailing, calendar, monotheism and ton of gold. Bulbed philosophy, but they have nothing to trade for it yet. Teched CS, spreaded religion, 300 were prepared for failgold, and suddenly:
What?! I was under impression AI can't declare war being at another war already. And she was at war with Mehmed. Is it wrong?

Well, long story short - I wasn't prepared at all, lost 2gems city, and she also bribed charlie on me. So I retired 20 turns later.