Nobles' Club 389: Hatshepsut of Egypt

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Hatshepsut of Egypt, whom we last played in NC 350; we last played the Egyptians under Ramesses II in NC 330. The Egyptians start with Agriculture and The Wheel.

• Traits: Hatshepsut is Creative and Spiritual. Creative gives every city +2 for free, and gives a +100% bonus to Libraries, Theatres, and Colosseums. Spiritual allows you to swap state religion/civics without suffering Anarchy, and gives a +100% bonus to all Temples.
• The UB: The Obelisk, a Monument with 2 Priest slots. Getting very early Great Prophets is more for the AI than the player, since the former should be left to the task of founding and spreading religions while the player builds up their empire and bulbs their way through the tech tree. But if you're looking to rush someone who hasn't build a Shrine yet early, or you want any Great Person to start a Golden Age, or you actually do want a Great Prophet to pull some manner of clever scheme, the Obelisk will allow you to get out the required Great Person that much easier, and earlier.
• The UU: The War Chariot, a Chariot with 5 and innate immunity to First Strike. A straight upgrade over the basic chariot, particularly against archers, these guys stand a chance at winning fights that regular chariots don't.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Inland Sea, Temperate climate, Medium sealevel, +1 AI to balance the board.

Spoiler edits :

A few strategic resource swaps.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 389 Hatshepsut Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

Tricky. One the one hand, plains hills. On the other hand, pigs. Don't have time to analyze the start, so the experts may proceed with the debating on where to move the Warrior and/or Settler, if SIP isn't the order of the day .

 

[Thrasybulos]

Alright, there might be a case for moving the warrior East to reveal the tile 2S1E: an Agriculture ressource there would certainly heavily impact the decision on where to settle. Plus, fog-gazing reveals FPs 2W and 3W1S, so there's a good chance that this is all the relevant information the obvious warrior NW move would provide.
In spite of that, I just can't bring myself to make a move which reveals just one tile when I can reveal almost 10... so warrior NW it is.

Spoiler Warrior moved :

Guess warrior East was the better move, after all!

Additional information:

• The Pig tile indicates Fresh Water. That means 2E is an Oasis, and 2E1S most likely a FP.
• River flow is southward, so we're in the northern portion of the map.

So I'm a bit torn...
Missing the information which would tell whether settling on the SW PH is OK or not. So have to assume it's not.
Settling on the grassland hill 1W would make for a slightly stronger Capital down the line, I feel: a bit more river tiles, and the vacated river grassland tile is stronger than the hill. Plus, there's a decent chance a forest will grow there.
But right now, it means a 1-turn delay, and losing a bit of commerce by foregoing the Oasis tile.
So not sure it's worth it...

 

[Fippy]

Great idea with the spoilered scout / warrior move pic..that should become standard imo, just so much more room for discussions
AH is obviously good for Egypt early so i guess that's a relatively easy SIP decision.

 

[Build2Much]

Looked at this earlier but haven’t downloaded. Extra info in @Thrasybulos post (non-spoiler parts) maybe would have convinced me to do what I think is the “right” thing in this situation. I have also looked at the spoiler now.

1. Oasis is important info I did not know when I first saw the screengrab. I guess it probably isn’t as good a tile as a PH settle, but faster early tech is nice.

2. War Chariots are a big deal, we currently have a compelling reason to go AH first, and there has to be at least 1 additional resource in this BFC as far as I’m aware? There are several possible horse spots in the BFC.

3. The only PH I would want to move to is 1SW because I don’t like to waste more than 1 turn moving. I don’t know how I could move without knowing there is a food resource in that fogged tile 2E of the Warrior if we know that to the west is definitely FP already.

 

[AcaMetis]

2. War Chariots are a big deal, we currently have a compelling reason to go AH first, and there has to be at least 1 additional resource in this BFC as far as I’m aware? There are several possible horse spots in the BFC.

Floodplains and/or lots of forests can count as a resource, though I don't think this start has that quantity of forests. I rolled one start (not this one) that had a single plains cow, one floodplain and like 20 tiles or so of forest in SIP BFC. I'm also not sure if an Oasis can count as a resource.

 

[chinemol]

Corn west of river could justify moving away from pig, warrior NW would reveal what lies there. SIP is good enough with pigs. Tech timing to worker is not awkward, though not optimal. Also we can locate horsies for easy barb protection

Spoiler :

in a barb infested map script

 

[Build2Much]

Floodplains and/or lots of forests can count as a resource, though I don't think this start has that quantity of forests. I rolled one start (not this one) that had a single plains cow, one floodplain and like 20 tiles or so of forest in SIP BFC. I'm also not sure if an Oasis can count as a resource.

If oasis counts then maybe it doesn’t HAVE to be, and there are a couple of fogged tiles that could have a food resource, but there are definitely enough naked hills that I would think we have a decent chance of having a little something special somewhere.

 

[soundjata]

As long as I'm on a river,
The rest does not really matter.

 

[Leason]

Created this account to give this map a shot at my first attempt at a legitimate play through. My previous games were always FIN leaders, sometimes Inca, and strong starts.
Immortal - Normal - SIP - Lost to Cultural 1858 AD
At work and no screen shots to post but I can figure that out later if requested.

Looking at the start for this map, I would have re-rolled it if it was a normal game but wanted to give a forum game a shot. I struggled to keep up in tech and did not leverage the map to my advantage. I dog-piled on and failed to get the capitulation of my first victim with Trebs/Cuir's, instead going to the other war participant (maybe i missed it). I ended up with 2 worst enemies for most the rest of the game, with a standing promoted army that I couldn't match. I went for my other neighbor and finally got capitulation, but by then the rest of the world had infantry and I was way behind. I failed to recognize any early advantage I may have had and just never got a good snowball rolling.

So my question from having played the map to completion and lost: Is it worth the time/effort to replay a map again from 4000BC to try a different approach?

My time is rather limited with kids, etc. and cannot decide if a new map or a replay is of better value. I know I need to be more aggressive earlier, but struggle with old habits of building too much (long game). The FIN leaders buffer this weakness of mine.

 

[Thrasybulos]

Is it worth the time/effort to replay a map again from 4000BC to try a different approach?

Not trying to deflect, but that's a question only you can answer.
Or you'll need to explicit what you mean exactly by "worth it"...

I'm the kind of player who'll replay the same map again and again before moving on to the next.
First, to beat it.
Then, to beat it "better".
Then, to beat it differently.

So I would definitely replay it. But that's me...

 

[Leason]

Not trying to deflect, but that's a question only you can answer.
Or you'll need to explicit what you mean exactly by "worth it"...

I'm the kind of player who'll replay the same map again and again before moving on to the next.
First, to beat it.
Then, to beat it "better".
Then, to beat it differently.

So I would definitely replay it. But that's me...

Thanks for reply. I'll give this map another go and see what I can learn.

 

[sampsa]

If you are interested at all in learning - replay!

 

[Leason]

Reloaded 4000 BC for another go. Immortal, Normal, SIP

Spoiler Early turns :

AH>Mining>BW>Pottery>Writing Worker 1st then went to barracks, switched in to whip Settler with BW and settled on Ivory to East near Wang Kon. Hooked up horses and 3 PH mines, opted to road to Seoul instead of chop since I could 2-3T Chariots. Hit Seoul with 4 Chariots +2 in transit right after settler left so 40%, 1 fortified + 1 whipped archer and 1 outside. Lost 2 chariots but proceeded to wipe Korea. By 1400 BC had my 2 + 3 Korean cities and 2 warrior, 9 chariots, my 3 + 4 captured workers and a corner of the map to settle. Definitely feeling like a better start, 0% Science and -6(?) GPT though.

Spoiler Future Plans :

Need to pump out the cottages on all existing land. Settle city near stone/sheep/sugar and another blocker on FP river to cut off Ethiopia. Chop Pryamids if possible, REP initially and maybe Police State whip later for Ethiopia. I understand Spiritual (5T empire focus) but have not used in practice. Settle best spots first with resources and maybe backfill (overlap) tighter later. IMO overall food is low and I have plenty of room now. I can take more (Ethiopia) instead of packing in 6 pop cities. In previous game, Capital (Thebes) was production/military focused (HE, WP settled GGs) and I made Memphis (Ivory city) my Science center (Academy, NE, Oxford) becuase I had better food there, wheat + FP. I expect to do the same again. Library and Hanging Gardens would be nice but I do not expect to get them. Liberalism-Nat is likely. I already know i will habitually continue to build and instead need to focus a hit on Ethiopia early as possible.

 

[jorissimo]

Reloaded 4000 BC for another go. Immortal, Normal, SIP

Spoiler Early turns :

AH>Mining>BW>Pottery>Writing Worker 1st then went to barracks, switched in to whip Settler with BW and settled on Ivory to East near Wang Kon. Hooked up horses and 3 PH mines, opted to road to Seoul instead of chop since I could 2-3T Chariots. Hit Seoul with 4 Chariots +2 in transit right after settler left so 40%, 1 fortified + 1 whipped archer and 1 outside. Lost 2 chariots but proceeded to wipe Korea. By 1400 BC had my 2 + 3 Korean cities and 2 warrior, 9 chariots, my 3 + 4 captured workers and a corner of the map to settle. Definitely feeling like a better start, 0% Science and -6(?) GPT though.

Spoiler Future Plans :

Need to pump out the cottages on all existing land. Settle city near stone/sheep/sugar and another blocker on FP river to cut off Ethiopia. Chop Pryamids if possible, REP initially and maybe Police State whip later for Ethiopia. I understand Spiritual (5T empire focus) but have not used in practice. Settle best spots first with resources and maybe backfill (overlap) tighter later. IMO overall food is low and I have plenty of room now. I can take more (Ethiopia) instead of packing in 6 pop cities. In previous game, Capital (Thebes) was production/military focused (HE, WP settled GGs) and I made Memphis (Ivory city) my Science center (Academy, NE, Oxford) becuase I had better food there, wheat + FP. I expect to do the same again. Library and Hanging Gardens would be nice but I do not expect to get them. Liberalism-Nat is likely. I already know i will habitually continue to build and instead need to focus a hit on Ethiopia early as possible.

Just a tip, it's much easier for us to give feedback when you post screenshots. And in the future you could consider posting shorter updates, like on t15, t25, t50 etc.

 

[Leason]

Back home and figured out how to take screenshots from what saves I have. Let me know if I posted improperly, my first time with screenshots and spoilers.
Highlights below:

Spoiler T17 :

1st Worker out and on pigs, build pop on barracks. Warrior sweeping CCW, off screen 6'clock. AH > Mining > BW

Spoiler T26 :

Next save. Pigs hooked up, 1 PH mine, and headed to horses. 10/100 on Settler, 10/50 on barracks. Warrior healing from lion.

Spoiler T37 :

Next save. Horses hooked up. Settler out, 20/50 on barracks. Guess I long built the settler (counting turns, no saves between). Building out the barracks and 2 pop whipping settler may have been better, but i didn't. Settler headed to Ivory. Target located - Korea

Spoiler T46 - War Chariot #1 :

Worker on PH mines for hammers on 5 pop, then road to target. Thebes to keep on 3T chariots, Memphis did warrior for 2 pop then workers.

Spoiler T57 DoW Target :

Declare next turn, 4+1 chariots ready. Workers still on road to target.

Spoiler T59 Capital captured :

Capital taken, -2 Chariots. Reserves coming but had barbs to deal with. Warrior to move from Memphis to Seoul. The rest is just mopping up.

Spoiler T65 Target cleared :

Korea wiped and Egypt now has 5 cities. A correction to above, I have 6 War Chariots remaining. Production switched over to Libraries, workers on cottages and hooking up Wonsan.

 

[jorissimo]

Back home and figured out how to take screenshots from what saves I have. Let me know if I posted improperly, my first time with screenshots and spoilers.
Highlights below:

Spoiler T17 :

1st Worker out and on pigs, build pop on barracks. Warrior sweeping CCW, off screen 6'clock. AH > Mining > BW
View attachment 745695

Spoiler T26 :

Next save. Pigs hooked up, 1 PH mine, and headed to horses. 10/100 on Settler, 10/50 on barracks. Warrior healing from lion.
View attachment 745694

Spoiler T37 :

Next save. Horses hooked up. Settler out, 20/50 on barracks. Guess I long built the settler (counting turns, no saves between). Building out the barracks and 2 pop whipping settler may have been better, but i didn't. Settler headed to Ivory. Target located - Korea
View attachment 745696

Spoiler T46 - War Chariot #1 :

Worker on PH mines for hammers on 5 pop, then road to target. Thebes to keep on 3T chariots, Memphis did warrior for 2 pop then workers.
View attachment 745700

Spoiler T57 DoW Target :

Declare next turn, 4+1 chariots ready. Workers still on road to target.View attachment 745701

Spoiler T59 Capital captured :

Capital taken, -2 Chariots. Reserves coming but had barbs to deal with. Warrior to move from Memphis to Seoul. The rest is just mopping up.
View attachment 745702

Spoiler T65 Target cleared :

Korea wiped and Egypt now has 5 cities. A correction to above, I have 6 War Chariots remaining. Production switched over to Libraries, workers on cottages and hooking up Wonsan.
View attachment 745703

That was a really surgical attack. 5 cities at 1400 BC is quite a nice result. Don't be afraid to chop more around the capital. You got BW early but didn't end up using it much.

 

[sampsa]

@Leason seems pretty easy from hereon. I'd pillage some improvements and get more workers. Not completely sold on going alpha - it's not the most useful thing out there. Pretty sure you are going peaceful from here (cuirs?). For example math-currency would seem more beneficial as you have a lot of room to expand now.

 

[Leason]

Had the workers available build roads so they were not around to chop. Just a choice. I'll most likely chop pyramids and settlers.

@sampsa I had not considered pillaging. Can you pillage your own land or does it have to be "uncultured" or enemy? I would change the FP farms to cottages under all scenarios so could pillage farms if possible. With the wipe of the Civ and being Creative, I expect the culture turnaround to be quick on the captured cities to get full cross.

Agree on Alpha, it was late and guess I got caught up in the moment and never looked at it again. I will probably replay these last few turns and will have to look hard at all my new land to settle. I will not continue conquest with War Chariots. Figure out best cities and peaceful expanse until i get it reasonably settled. Then if I get the Mids I'll go Police State & Theo for Phants/Cuirs on my next neighbor depending on the time frame.

 

[jorissimo]

Had the workers available build roads so they were not around to chop. Just a choice. I'll most likely chop pyramids and settlers.

That's a mistake imho. You only needed the roads to connect your cities and the ones for the horse. I see some roads going west that aren't necessary. Chops are worth way, way more than random roads.