Nobles' Club CLVIII: Hammurabi of Babylon

[dalamb]

BC 4000-2450 with first dotmap

Monarch, Huts+Events, normal barbs, no tech brokering.

Spoiler :

I decided to take out Roosevelt as early as possible, so started building Axemen in Babylon. Founded Akkad next to the horses, built/whipped monument, granary, and barracks (not optimal for a rush, I know, but I really wanted the City Raider I promotion), then built axemen there, too. Lost 3 axes to the 3 archers in Washington, 2 to the 2 archers in New York. I was concerned that Boston was only size 1 but it hit size 2 before I got my axemen there, and I didn't lose any this time.


Now building a galley in Akkad and a library in Babylon, with research turned off until I get the library multiplier. With Roosevelt's 3 cities and my 2 adding to maintenance, research will be slow until Currency / wealth building.

Spoiler dotmap :

I have a settler but am not sure whether to settle a 6th city; it would be nice to start a commerce city next to the flood plains (orange 2e of copper), or maybe grab the gold or furs for happiness, but I'm not sure I can afford it yet.

It would be nice to have some advice on which cities to settle next and how long to wait until I do so.

 

[dutchfire]

Spoiler :

Still playing, slight tech lead and going for Space. The AI are fighting a lot of wars, I only get a regular invasion from Monty every now and then. Strange game, isolated but with a tech advantage almost all game. I knocked out Roosevelt early and was still able to get Confucianism and Taoism, be the first to Liberalism and circumnavigate. The Taj Mahal was my first wonder.

 

[elitetroops]

@dalamb

Spoiler :

I'd go for the gold next. Working the gold will pay for the maintenance costs and the higher happy cap is needed on this map.

The orange dot would be better 1SW. You don't lose any good tiles, but can work fish immediately. WB can be built fast using copper.

 

[dmd175]

@Mega

That makes sense, but is the 7-10 gpt worth it in return for allowing the AI to grow all his cutie incrementally by 1 (or 2) and all the extra hpt/gpt that generates? For me, it seems "worth it" to deprive AI those benefits

 

[Ironlungs76]

@Mega

That makes sense, but is the 7-10 gpt worth it in return for allowing the AI to grow all his cutie incrementally by 1 (or 2) and all the extra hpt/gpt that generates? For me, it seems "worth it" to deprive AI those benefits

As a rule the AI has far more trouble dealing with health issues rather than happiness, so by denying trading a Wine, or whatever, to the AI to 'hold them back' doesn't work in practice. Just trade excess resources away for profit.

I traded Monty 1 excess Pig late in the game and he offered me 5-6 resources to cover it including Ivory and Iron. Happiness to the AI is relatively pointless (unless Ivory) on higher difficulties.

 

[MegaLurker]

@Mega

That makes sense, but is the 7-10 gpt worth it in return for allowing the AI to grow all his cutie incrementally by 1 (or 2) and all the extra hpt/gpt that generates? For me, it seems "worth it" to deprive AI those benefits

On difficulties where AIs regularly have that much GPT to trade (Immortal or Deity) happiness is not an issue for them.

 

[dutchfire]

Emperor 1934 Space win.

 

[dmd175]

One of my earliest and rare conquest victories!

NC has helped a lot. Based on other people saying difficulties <emperor are similar, I might like to try a learner/shadow game on emperor.

Conquest was Awesome. This has definitely helped broaden me from builder only into more balanced player - I didn't sit back and build every improvement for long term game, rather I thought about what was needed and build that (usually units).
Unit kills this game versus my most recent prior game:

Spoiler :

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for last game comparison

Action Report NC 158

Spoiler :

1010 AD: forgot to mention-in GA (from Music GA) revolted to HR/OR.
--GE in Babylon, will save for Notre Dame (Engineering in 6)

1050 AD: FDR didn't hook up his iron in time .

Spoiler :

Only a single archer defending (on a hill) versus my 4 axe (1 combat 4, 2 with CR2 and cover). Lost a lower level axe and got a worker and Philly and no more FDR.

1070 AD: Met Mansa. Trade literature (Peter and Sury had it) and Philo (Peter had it) for Feudalism and 50 gold.

1090 AD: Notre Dame with GE.

1100 AD: Met Zara.
1110 AD: Met Alexander.
1120 AD: Into vassalage b/c will build troops.

Eng'g > (Feud)> Theo > Paper > DR > CS
ok, I'm ahead I think enough

Spoiler :

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...

1300: Took Sury's island city.

Built Sankore, versaille, Minaret, Taj. Started ultimately a 48 turn GA with Taj and GS/GP then GS/Economics GM/GA, then Physics CS/Communism GS/GA/GP.

1540: Capped Khmer (cats, mace). Turned to Russia.

1610: Capped Russia (cats, trebs, mace, knights)

1640: Took Tenochtitlan.

1685: capped Aztec, had to take 5 cities - others cap at 3 (curs, trebs, mace).

Into State Property for distance maintenance -- a rare civic for me.

1710: 48 consecutive turns of GA ended.
(and even that GA production was later dwarfed by RR/factories)

Spoiler :

Ready for Zara - the #1 rival

Spoiler :

-about the biggest C4 meatwagon I've made, and I've never had such a sizable navy

1785: Capped Zara after 5 cities (cavs and cannons started in this war, but mainly curs).

Spoiler :

--Mansa unvassaled from Zara (I think he was a peace vassal). I made peace b/c have to go through Alex to get to him and that will take 10 turns.

1795: On to Greece.
not sure why he moved stack OUT of capital; failed flanking move Alex.

Spoiler :

1812: Greece vassaled and turn troops toward Timbuktu.

1824: Mansu capped after taking 3 of his 4 on the continent.
This triggered the dom limit (60.25%0->64.69% land after vassaling), score 120436.
I reloaded (6K) and gave away cities to get under 62% (Sury x 2, Peter x 2, and Monty, Zara, Alex), score 114881.

Is this typical that with balanced land and population (and at ~turn 280) that conquest/dom scores would be so similar? I thought conquest would have given a higher score.

 

[elitetroops]

Congrats dmd! Very nice with the 48 turn GA!

I don't think victory condition is factored into the score. It's basically your ingame score times a multiplier based on finish date. Earlier win means higher score. Since population counts to your ingame score, domination wins in general give higher score than conquest wins.

 

[dalamb]

BC 4000-2450 with first dotmap
BC 2450-1125 with second dotmap

Monarch, Huts+Events, normal barbs, no tech brokering. 3:31 of play so far. This is a point where I often feel confused about tech path. Given my troubles with warmongering, conquest and domination are out, so I'm going to go for space -- while trying to remember to keep up a good military to avoid being attacked. So for the benefit of me and other lower-level players, maybe some experienced ones can check out my analysis below and give further advice.

Spoiler :

Overview: As advised I settled near the gold right away for increased happiness and held off on any of the other dotmapped locations until fairly recently. I tech'd peacefully towards Liberalism, which I'm now 1 turn from achieving.

Spoiler brief chronology :

• BC 1125 (turn 115): as previosly reported, I wiped out Roosevelt. I should have previously tech'd Masonry in hopes of being able to use Marble for the Oracle (9 turns), but by the time I finally did so in 725 BC (turn 131) it was gone (Sury built it in 875; I'd have got it in 900 BC, just in time -- or earlier with a few chops or with starting as soon as Washington came out of revolt). I had research off while building libraries for the boost. Poor planning; I knew I was going to use his marble to try for the Oracle, but didn't pay enough attention.
• BC 500-215 build the Pyramids with the stone accelerator.
• BC 150 Code of Laws and Confucianism.
• BC 155 First Great Scienctist goes for an Academy in Babylon.
• AD 130 Philosophy and Taoism, but primarily meant for blocking Liberalism since the AI give up on it once someone has researched it.
• AD 355 trade for Alphabet from Alex.
  
• AD 370 popped a Great Engineer in Washington. I saved him to rush the Great Library.
• AD 535 Finish the Mausoleum in Babylon and Chichen Itza in Akkad (for defence, since I'm planning to stay peaceful). Then I immediately rushed the Great Library witht the saved GE.
• AD 610 Got the Great Artist from Music. Used him for a golden age a little later when I got Civil Service, so I could change several civics at once.
• AD 685: Peter's borders to my west popped close enough that I met him and traded many techs:
  
• AD 745 trade iron for several resources from Peter. I'd have gone for GPT if he had any.
  
• AD 835 trade for Feudalism with Zara, whose border had just popped to my east.
  
• AD 940: finished Paper and traded for Zara and Peter's maps.
• AD 980 Finished Education and popped another Great Scientist similtaneously. I've saved him (see below for reasoning).
• AD 1050: One turn from liberalism, paused for advice.

Spoiler current status :

I've met all but one AI; I'm guessing from the northern island or continent I passed with my caravel that the 6th is to my northwest or north. My caravels should circumnavigate in a few turns. I'm going to switch to spying on Sury so I can get his chart information, but here's what I can tell about the others:

• Charts. I'm ahead in score (likely because of tech) and behind in power.
  
• Demographics. Not quite last in soldiers, but almost. Gotta fix that before the AI can reach me. Apparently one is supposed to be first in the first 6 categories.
  
• Religion. I'm Confucian, one block is Jewish, the other (with Apostolic Palace) is Hindu. The unknown AI is buddhist.
• Techs. Nobody else has the prereqs for Liberalism yet, so I could defer it if I want a more expensive tech.
  
• The West
  
• The East
  
• Wonders. I have most of what I wanted, except Hagia Sophia (for the extra Great Engineer points)
  

I'm in Pacifism, 5 turns from the next GP, but will need to switch out of it as it gets more expensive as I build up my military.

Spoiler analysis and questions :

If I want to get on better terms with people, to reduce the chance of them attacking me, I think I need to go for Free Religion. That'll give me +10% and, if I spread Taoism, +2 -- plus one more if I rush for Divine Right / Islam (though that's not all that likely, since lots of AI can research it right now and apparently they like to prioritize it). That likely means lib'ing Nationalism right away instead of holding out for Steel (which I'd do if I were warmongering, for the cannons). Given that I have some time, is there any tech I should head for instead?

I really don't know the optimal order for reaching space, and haven't seen much advice about its tech order -- lots of people focus on gunpowder+MT for a cuirassier conquest, which I'm not planning.

Increased production along the assembly line / industrialism line first? Economics for the extra trade route (Free Market)? There's no point getting the GM for Cereal Mills or Sushi, since there are only 3 each of the relevant resources, so I could afford to defer it. OTOH he'd partly bulb Printing Press, but if I get that from my saved Greast Scientist he'd parly bulb Replaceable parts.

I was saving the GS because the techs he'd bulb at the point I got him, like Compass, were fairly cheap. He'd partly bulb Printing Press at this point. But I wonder if it's worth saving him for possible Aluminim Inc? That resource won't be revealed for a while yet, so we don't know if we'll have it, and it's pretty important for spaceship production. Or should I use him soon and hope I generate another GS in time, or get to Physics first?

Or is Steel a good idea just for further progress toward Railroad (for increased mine and better defensive military mobility if I get attacked)?

Interesting map so far.

Edit: added save.

 

[Izuul]

Deity 720 AD

Spoiler :

I'm 1T from winning Lib which is why i stopped here to evaluate things.

Picking up from my 1 AD update, i finished teching CS and revolted into Bureau and HR at the same time. I continued to wipe out Roosevelt while teching Compass > Machinery > Optics. A couple of whipped galleys were in place in time to get my troops from Chicago (the last American city on the continent) over to his final island city of Seattle. On the turn that Seattle fell i met these guys:

Spoiler :

There was a way to reach their continent with a border pop in Seattle, but i decided to tech Astro anyway since i was already so far down that path. I also got 1 whipped and 1 chopped caravel into the water the turn after discovering Optics to go exploring. Getting trade routes with all of those guys on the other continent was a really big boost to my economy, and i was also able to build a 1T observatory in my capitol as well as trade some excess resources away for a lot of GPT. I'm currently making 35 GPT just off of resource trades in addition to getting spices, dyes, silks, gems, cows, wheat, and rice.

My NW caravel found Monty just a few turns after leaving port. This was slightly surprising to me because i hadn't looked at the number of AI in the game and just assumed there were 6. I could see Mansa due to a map trade but hadn't actually met him at this point. Anyway, Monty has a lot of land and 14 cities but is really backwards. He was plotting when i met him and he only had contact with Peter at the time so i assume that's his target. He's still plotting now...

Lib looked lost as Peter was the first to Philo (quite some time ago) and Education, but he made a big mistake and basically just gave Lib to me. I have a screen shot on my other computer, but he started teching Lib (7T) while i was still 3T away from Edu and lacked Philo. I was pretty confident i could get Philo in a trade shortly because the only reason nobody was trading it was because they were building Angkor War. Sure enough as soon as Sury completed the wonder Peter was willing to trade Philo..... and Education! I swear he was the only person with Edu just before that so i think he must've traded his monopoly tech to Sury due to them being friendly with each other and then was willing to trade it to me once Sury knew it. Anyway, I got both techs for Astro and then switched to Lib (4T) and Peter was still at 6T to Lib at the time. He's since shaved 1T off that but i will still beat him to it.

Of course this changes things now. Lib along with me discovering that these other AI aren't really that big or advanced has me rethinking my strategy on this map. I had thought about space or maybe late war. I was preparing to go deeper into the tree by whipping some unis and building Oxford since i have stone, but now i don't know about that. I wasn't able to research the techs needed to unlock a good Lib tech so i will have to settle for something on the way to a military tech. Choices are basically Nationalism or Printing Press. If i had GP i would Lib Chem and head for Steel, but that doesn't look possible. PP is my current bulb tech and I've only generated 2 great people so far and I'm planning a golden age within the next few turns so that seems like a big waste of Lib. I think Nationalism has to be the choice and i will need to look at the possibility of getting the Taj.

After doing some math, I think my "best" city would take 14T to build the wonder. That's with a forge, 8T of golden age, running OR, and 2 forest chops. None of my cities have good base hammers or really any forests left unfortunately. The AI can build these wonders much, much faster than i can, but i may be able to get enough of a head start to beat them to that one - maybe.

Here are a few screen shots of the current situation:

Spoiler :

 

[elitetroops]

@dalamb, for diplo advice I'd suggest you post a screen of the Glance tab in the foreign advisor (you use BUG, right?). That gives the best overview on what's going on. But...

Spoiler :

...yes, Free Religion is a good way to stay out of trouble. I wouldn't worry too much about an attack though, the AI is at it's worst when it comes to naval invasions.

For a space game I don't think libbing Nationalism is the best idea. Rather take astronomy. It's an expensive tech and you don't get any research discount as it has no direct prerequisites. Can't tell if you have Optics yet, but you have plenty of time to research it. If you can get at least one more Great Scientist, then it could be possible to even lib Physics, the AI are still so far behind. But that could get a bit risky. Probably still much better to lib astro asap for traderoutes.

Can't help you with the late game tech order, haven't played space in a long time..

 

[dalamb]

@elitetroops -- the Glance screen in BUG for some reason wasn't showing the numbers, just the faces, so it isn't useful without going and hovering over each individual cell with the mouse.

Spoiler space victory :

I poked around the forums looking for space victory guides but they focused on the endgame - "go rocketry first then plastics, computers, superconductors, satellites, robotics, composites, laser, fibre optics, fusion, genetics, ecology" in this one for example, slightly different in that one - rather than the midgame. They also tended to say "build/conquer 20 cities first" which isn't something I especially wanted to do. But maybe I have to.

I've seen other advice to skip the space elevator as a waste of hammers.

 

[soundjata]

Loving Izuul's write up

Looking forward to some epic naval warfare!

 

[Ironlungs76]

@ dalmanb

Spoiler :

I've seen other advice to skip the space elevator as a waste of hammers.

Still to this day I'm amazed that people bother building the Temple of Artemis and the Space Elevator. The hammers that you could convert into Wealth/Research at that stage of the game make the Space Elevator completely useless. It is the most useless Wonder in the game. Period. Including the Statue of Zeus, at least that's worth some fail gold early doors.

If you try to build any late game Wonder it ought to be Internet, which couples well with a Space win, anything else is a complete waste of time, IMO.

 

[FlyingSwan]

@dalamb.Yove got LOTS of forests left,so I presume the plan there is lumbermills-in that case you want to bulb printing press and get replaceable parts sooner rather than later.Dont forget to irrigate your corn!!!and that lumbermills get the +1hammer from railroads.

You need to make up your mind whether to spread a religion to the rest of your citys and run OR for the +25% hammers-also risking wars with other civs,or free religion with its +10% beakers,and less chance of DOW.

I like to delay Lib,my game I went for democracy-just because I had spammed cottages everywhere.Elite troops makes a good argument for taking astro-the extra trade routes,and it also open up observatorys for that extra +25% science.

Absolutaly no need to conquer that many citys for a space vic,I had only 8 this game,but if you want an early finish date,then yes more citys the better.

As for the space tech path,I beeline superconductors so I can build laboratrys,+25% research in your citys will get you the other techs quicker,and of course +50% parts production.

The space elevator is a weird one,If you have a spare city build it,at the very least it should speed up the engine parts even if it gets built late.This game I didn't realy have a spare city-but I had 2 engineers so rush built it in 1 turn,so I would say build it especially if you have an engineer to help with it.

 

[elitetroops]

The problem with the space elevator is that it requires you to research robotics, which isn't needed for your spaceship. This makes it a waste of both beakers and hammers. In the end your space ship is only as slow as your slowest part, so thinking that the space elevator cuts 1/3 of spaceship construction time is an illusion. It only cuts 1/3 of the time it takes to produce the last part, which usually is an engine. Better to head straight to fusion and get those engines started sooner. Cities with less production can handle the cheaper parts.

I'm not sure how the space elevator equation changes if you produce several parts in the same city. I assume it would be worth it in OCC?

 

[Ironlungs76]

I assume it would be worth it in OCC?

Assuming your Capitol s in the exact right spot to build it. Map variances given.

I'm trying really hard to justify building Space Elevator on a difficulty setting above Monarch. It really is complete horsehockeye on every level.

 

[FlyingSwan]

I thought the space elevator was +50% part production in ALL citys,not just the city its built in-at least that's what the civilopedia says,and is the only reason I would build it.If its only 1 city,then I would agree-its the most useless wonder ever.

The way I look at is this-you build it with engineers,the turns saved from your other citys parts production is now turned into wealth/research quicker,this will get you to fusion quicker potentially-100% slider and +50% engine parts production overtakes the turns you lost teching robotics.

That's the way ive been playing it,maybe im totally wrong then,although I do say without an engineer to rush it theres no point in using that many hammers.

 

[elitetroops]

It's +50% in all cities. But the point is, your spaceship flies off when the last part is built. I haven't played space in a while, but I seem to recall this was usually the very expensive engines. Going for robotics delays fusion, which means you start the engines later. This pretty much negates any gain you get from having the space elevator. All other parts can be finished in other cities before the engines, with or without the elevator.