Nobles' Club: what map options to use by default?

[dalamb]

I'd really like to run a "same start" series where people can choose their starting leader, but the only way that wouldn't be heavily burdensome would be to have the end players switch their civ in the game themselves.

Maybe it's just lack of early-morning caffeine, but I can't figure out what you mean. PYL famously needed one save per leader times one save per difficulty level because of wanting the player to start with only the right two techs and everyone else to start with something level-appropriate, so I assume you're talking about reducing that particular burden for the map creator -- but I just can't figure out what you intend to have the players do.

An alternative PYL could start in the Classic or later era so starting techs didn't matter at all, I suppose. Only one WB save needed!

 

[Capellan]

I think TMIT's idea is to post a map with a set starting point, but then anyone who downloads it needs to edit the save to insert their preferred leader instead of the placeholder leader (who I vote should be Sid).

Then you see how the start plays with different leaders. "Same Map, Different Civ". Could be fun, but yeah - creating 52 saves per difficulty level would be a bit burdensome for the map creator

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I think TMIT's idea is to post a map with a set starting point, but then anyone who downloads it needs to edit the save to insert their preferred leader instead of the placeholder leader (who I vote should be Sid).

Then you see how the start plays with different leaders. "Same Map, Different Civ". Could be fun, but yeah - creating 52 saves per difficulty level would be a bit burdensome for the map creator

Yes, this is what I meant.

Sid as a default leader (no starting tech, no traits, no UU/UB) would be likely.

 

[Nicol.Bolas]

I don' t like that idea for a public game thats meant to teach and share.
The idea itself is good, but maybe for a series of it's own, not in a learning series.

How is that different from the hut criticism.

IE: "oh, you didn´t take cathy in BCs? you should have used prets man, oh, you play lincoln"

 

[NihilZero]

Events on/off is totally under user control when using WB saves, so who cares? If you don't like events, just select "custom scenario" and turn them off. I'd like to see 2 sets of saves: one with huts on, the other with huts off. People should be free to play the game the way they like.

Exactly.

I never use either, but occasionally they come up in a forum game and sometimes the change is even refreshing (although usually not ).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I don' t like that idea for a public game thats meant to teach and share.
The idea itself is good, but maybe for a series of it's own, not in a learning series.

How is that different from the hut criticism.

IE: "oh, you didn´t take cathy in BCs? you should have used prets man, oh, you play lincoln"

Such a series would have no intention to be a learning or teaching series at all, but rather just a different thing entirely for fun.

 

[Ororo]

A struggling Noble-level player can definately learn a lot more from a game where someone uses the same settings but demostrates how cleverly you can abuse that particular leader without the essence of complete randomness, than he can from a game where another guy gets IW from a hut and on the top of it rolls an event that gives all meelee troops the Cover promotion...

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

I don't mind if people use huts & events but what's the point on having them on in forum games? The whole idea is based on learning by comparism. And I've been taught that you can't compare apples and pears... I can tell it from my personal experience... I've moved from a casual Noble Time victories to some consistent Domination/Conquest wins on Emperor. I know, it's not the best in the world, but it's still decent for a player that can't play on regular basis. I've achieved that mostly by comparing my approach to other people's and eliminating some gameplay flaws I've been making. What I can say for sure is that none of these strategies & tips included randomness, because that would just not be educational at all!

Now if you want to argue that by playing another leader the game becomes incomparable, you're wrong. The traits and the uniques might not be totally balanced, but it doesn't make much of a difference. You can pretty much always be a competitive fraction in the game, unless some psycho AI screws you in the early game. I think TMIT has already mentioned it several times that one of the best HoF games (or was it BOTM? I apologize, I can't remember right now...) was played using Charlemagne. Yeah, Rathaus is a stellar UB, but the UU and traits are generally considered weak...

I play this game casually after work and what I value mostly about it is that it's some sort of relaxment that however does require you to think at least a little bit about what your further steps will be. IMO this key element that made somehow addicted to this game is completely eliminated by Random events and Huts.

...so i think I've explained adeqautely why I voted for the third option

Dalamb, the choice is yours, I'm be no means going to flame you and I'll keep playing this series (by using the hutless saves or whatever). In general I think you're doing an excellent job, I just felt it was necessary to give my opinion on this issue.

TMIT, I would definately welcome such series and would even consider making a let's play of it (but then again, I would probably need a better HW than I currently have). I also think that this might be a brilliant idea for a future Let's Play on your channel (maybe on Deity? )

 

[GKey]

Events OFF! It seems you can't turn them off manually.
Huts are ok, since you CAN turn them off manually. Having fun with huts (Assembly Line in BCs anyone?) or learn or both - everyone decides for himself.

EDIT: Just found out you can turn events off through Custom Scenario in main menu (after 5 years of of playing ).
Leave them both on then. But encourage people to play with events/huts off.

 

[vranasm]

Events OFF! It seems you can't turn them off manually.
Huts are ok, since you CAN turn them off manually. Having fun or learn or both - everyone decides for himself.

actually it's completely reverse...
events you can turn off with custom scenario.
huts are hard wired in the WB save so the "no huts" checkbox has no meaning.

 

[GKey]

Yes, just realized I can pick "Custom Scenario" rather then "Play a Scenario" from menu.

I am used to delete huts from WB save in Notepad:
Open WBsave in Notepad
Ctrl+f hut
Select and Ctrl+c entire line with word hut in it (must be ImprovementType=IMPROVEMENT_GOODY_HUT)
Menu->edit->Replace
Ctrl+v and press Replace All
Save and exit

Voila! 10 sec work, but to realize that there is Custom Scenario option in menu took me 5 years of playing.

 

[vranasm]

Yes, just realized I can pick "Custom Scenario" rather then "Play a Scenario" from menu.

I am used to delete huts from WB save in Notepad:
Open WBsave in Notepad
Ctrl+f hut
Select and Ctrl+c entire line with word hut in it(must be ImprovementType=IMPROVEMENT_GOODY_HUT)
Menu->edit->Replace
Ctrl+v and press Replace All
Save and exit

Voila! 10 sec work. To find out that there is Custom Scenario option in menu took me 5 years of playing.

hmm that replace thing makes it easier... last time i deleted the things from wb save I did with F3, shift+down, delete, repeat until end

 

[A_Hamster]

A struggling Noble-level player can definately learn a lot more from a game where someone uses the same settings but demostrates how cleverly you can abuse that particular leader without the essence of complete randomness, than he can from a game where another guy gets IW from a hut and on the top of it rolls an event that gives all melee troops the Cover promotion...

That's why I found Capellan's Noble-level walk-though in the NC Bismarck game valuable. He had more cities and wonders than I did that game, which shows me I can speed my early expansion and still get the wonders I want at Noble. Now I just need to apply the lessons.

BTW, how do you access Sid?

 

[Capellan]

That's why I found Capellan's Noble-level walk-though in the NC Bismarck game valuable.

Glad to know it helped. I'm probably going to do something similar with Churchill. Ideally, I'd like to youtube it, but Camstudio and I aren't getting along (it seems like it will only work in windowed mode, which my computer doesn't much like, and the video quality is not good, even after trying about 8 different codecs).

 

[Nicol.Bolas]

Events OFF! It seems you can't turn them off manually.
Huts are ok, since you CAN turn them off manually. Having fun with huts (Assembly Line in BCs anyone?) or learn or both - everyone decides for himself.

EDIT: Just found out you can turn events off through Custom Scenario in main menu (after 5 years of of playing ).
Leave them both on then. But encourage people to play with events/huts off.

no, this is contradictory. we should do it completely oppositely
if you want to encourage someone, you do it by providing the proper save.

those who insist on huts and events will then have to go thorough the complicated editing instead

 

[GKey]

Please provide instructions for adding huts.

 

[dalamb]

It looks like aboue 3/4 of respondents want no huts / no events by default, split about evenly as to the secondary issue of discouraging people from turning events back on. The poll will remain open until a couple of days before the Churchill game to see if the balance changes at all, but it looks definitive at the moment. So my current plan is:

1. Generate a base noble-level scenario with huts, eg NC 71 Churchill Huts.
2. Create 4 WB saves with no huts, events off (NC 71 Churchill Noble/Monarch/Immortal/Deity).
3. Put those latter 4 in the .zip file, omitting the huts version.
4. Update the boilerplate to say the huts/events save is available by contacting the map creator.

That last point caters to people like me who really want to play with huts enabled but makes it enough harder to do that most people will just go with the easily-available no huts/no events saves. Personally, I play very few games and currently want most of them to have huts on. If they weren't in NC I'd rarely get to see them.

I'll also update the boilerplate to point to instructions for worldbuilding-in the right techs for the barbarians. Providing 16 save files myself would be prohibitively time-consuming (Quick/ Normal/ Epic/ Marathon speeds times Monarch/ Emperor/ Immortal/ Deity difficulties; barbs need no techs at Prince and below). If somebody produces a barb-enhanced save for their favourite speed and difficulty, they can attach them to their own posting to save others the effort.

 

[kalidude]

Glad to know it helped. I'm probably going to do something similar with Churchill. Ideally, I'd like to youtube it, but Camstudio and I aren't getting along (it seems like it will only work in windowed mode, which my computer doesn't much like, and the video quality is not good, even after trying about 8 different codecs).

I know TMIT had success when he switched from Camstudio to Xfire. I personally have used Xfire to record video and have no complaints. It's also free.

Also, your opening commentary really helped me as well. Thanks.

 

[Capellan]

I personally have used Xfire to record video and have no complaints. It's also free.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

 

[Nicol.Bolas]

game speed

I believe this should also be set by the host.
Again the same argument applies: it' s impossible to compare and share games played on different speed.
Playing slower then normal speed on maps, that don't justify it, is really making the game -1 or even -2 difficulty.
(slower speed makes units faster, AI worse at combat, invasions easier, surprise factor stronger, react time of AI slower, MM more powerfull, mistakes less harmful)

I am not saying that all games should be on normal speed, some scripts and sizes justify slower, it is fun time from time, but everyone needs to share the same experience.
I am kinda annoyed at skipping many posts, because the people play on different speed, and I can relate to it in no way.


For standard size and smaller maps the speed should always be normal.
For certain standard size map scripts and for large maps, speed depends. It can be normal or epic.
For large and huge maps and some scripts. Speed can be epic or marathon.

what is crucial, is that everyone playes the same speed.

Agree / disagree?

 

[dalamb]

There is absolutely no way I am ever going to post a game that restricts game speeds.