Nobles' Club XXXVIII: Ghengis Khan

[obsolete]

Immortal -- No Speed Cheats

4000 BC to Liberalism

Spoiler :

I never go for this leader since he is not really that great for high levels. Decided to give him a try at immortal here though for the hell of it. Funny thing is, I went wonder spamming and denied Zara so bad that he only built one wonder (not a great one) all game. Unfortunately Ghandi stole mids when I was finishing up, or I would have had this game all wrapped up about right now.

Anyhow, I ran an SE without rep and we are up to liberalism now. I am so far ahead of the AI it’s not even funny, and my next wonder will be the Taj My last one was the UoS.

I got crippled very bad early in the game though. Someone had the brainiac idea to leave newbie-events on in this starting-save, and I got hit at the worst time with a slave revolt, just after I swapped so I could whip a settler. By the time I recovered and got that settler out, I had JUST missed out on a very important piece of real-estate. That hurt me really bad… Make note in future to turn that newbie Sh*t off!!

So most the game I’ve been trying to recover from that while being crippled, it wasn’t fun, but I am just now at the point where I am going to recover. WONDER POWER! In fact, I’m so strong now I am just about to cause one of Zara’s cities to revolt to me. Yes, the culture master himself. And he even has the forbidden palace wonder in that city too!

I don’t understand why in god’s name I am still on the bottom of the list here. I think the game totally over-estimates the value of real-estate or something. Even with just 5 cities here I am clearly kicking everyone’s ass. In fact, I don’t even have to war or anything to easily win this one. But I think I will go ahead and do some warmongering in a while just for some excitement

Current Tech Situation


Capital


Deer City


Zara about to flip

 

[CivIVMonger]

My computer won't cooperate with the screenshots. I did, however, get the save to work. If I post it will sadly have to be just saves and no screenshots.

 

[Khirron]

1425 AD Domination
Don't feel like doing a write up
Fun game, thanks for hosting. I encourage everyone to give it a try.

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

Never trust an AI you can't throw out the window!

Spoiler :

I was there trying to win culture and so neglecting my military. Zara and Roosevelt were dead and Gandhi was everyone's worst enemy. Then Monty declares on me. Don't get me wrong, I could build Riflemen and was getting close to Assembly Line, but I just had switched off slavery and was running free speech so I had no means of quickly assembling an army. I had 1 archer/city and he came with cuirassiers. It was a loss. That said, I'll reload and go back to when I got Democracy to make different civic switches. Everyone please keep that in mind when my report comes.

 

[obsolete]

Immortal -- NO Speed Cheats (Cont.)

Liberalism --> End Game

Spoiler :

Well, I continued my tech lead and rebuilt a lot of curaissers… then I went and upgraded them all to cav when the time came and got ready to DoW on Zara. However.. Some other things happened just then, with me causing a few wars, and then I decided to join in and pounce on the Americans because now I had a chance to take down that big meanie.

That war went quick… actually too quick. A few turns and I had taken all his cities except for 2. God damn do I love cavalry or what!! Wang-Bang… who the hell makes seige anyway?

My problem was I had got too greedy and decided to keep all those cities… unfortunately my cities then revolted and flipped over to another one of my vassals later on #@%$@#%.

After I vassaled the Americans, I took a bunch of cities from Monte-the-Idiot, and vassaled him. I really wanted to just wipe him off the map, but every time I wait, some other idiot vassals him instead.

After that, Gilg decided to FRIENDLY vassal to me… I haven’t seen this in like 2 years! Anyhow, sure…..! I then dog-pile onto Zara with my 3 vassals now. Unfortunately this was very drawn out and took forever. But eventually I got him to capit as well.

Stupid Ghandi kept teching like he was a deity near the end. I was going to keep things simple by just nuking him into oblivion, but I had enough votes already to win through the UN. I can’t believe the AI actually BUILDS this knowing clear well he is signing his death warrant. God this AI is terrible.

I think over 30 Cav is good enough to start a war?



Damnit, game is over already?

 

[Groogaroo]

Well, This is about as close as I've ever come to economic collapse in a game of civ. I'm nearly over the hump but still feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall here...

Update - 245BC/turn157 - Emporer/Epic (No events)

Spoiler :

I hit into Zara with Keshiks, he was fairly lightly defended but had a few cities on hills which slowed me down a little. When he was down to just one city I decided to keep the momentum going declaring on Roosevelt.

Again Roosevelt seemed like easy pickings, but I realised I've been keeping way too many cities. I'm currently leaking -44 Gold per turn @ 0% scince slider with only 230 gold in the koffers. None of the AI's have teched alphabet yet let alone Currency which I deperatley need.




America still has cities to the North West and I have no option but to just keep attacking cities for the cash. But all too soon I'm down to my last American city and cash is really looking rock bottom, I'm currently working every commerce tile possible, deleted every unit that I can do without, there's not much more I can do... and I'm still 27 turns from alphabet.




Luckily its not long before alphabet has finally become available for trade.




I found a barb city which I razed for some cash but I still have a while left on Currency and only 100 gold in the bank. I'm building cottages everywhere just to ease the pain but I have to face facts the only way to get more money is to keep warring against someone. Decided to just go for Gilgamesh, even though he's tougher, top of the leader board and has both metals and horses I just need a few cities to get me over the hump so to speak.




Going after giggles wasn't such a good idea, I took 1 city fairly easy but my forces are tired need resting and I'm not sure if I can take another city right now. Currency still has 9 turns left, there's enough money for about 3 turns and every city is building research.

I might switch civics just to give my troops a couple more turns to heal and try and take one more city.

Here's the empire...




Cities...




Tech...

 

[GGS]

Prince/Epic

The only thing I recall from my sole Arboria game is that the woods are full of bears so early losses can be problematic. Settling in place consitutes a "silver" start. The tech path will be AH (to find a horse resource) then mining, BW (for chopping and slavery). The build order beyond worker, warrior will depend on the scouting.

 

[KaytieKat]

Hi

Prince, Marathon, 1255 AD, Dom win

Spoiler :

Really not much to add from last report. I killed off Giggles. Then I waitied a few turns just to save enuff gold to mass upgrade my whole army. Then I hit Ghandi and after the first turn of war where I took too cities:



Unlike SOME AI's from the lhc peri game Ghandi is very reasonable

That was that. Final score:



Definitely one of my better scores

All and all a fun map. Ghengis is fun on this map so thanks dalamb . If anyone who never done thi smap before liked it, try Monty on it. Last time I played arboria I was monty and start was a lot like this one-marble in bfc. So after bw and pottery and masonry I belined to oracle chopped it and took IW as free tech and went on a lil jag rampage. I was a LIL tempted to try taking HBR with oracle but Monty is lil better for that cuz as SOON as IW picked you can pump Jags where with keshiks you still need archery and then need to build gers etc.

Anways hope everybody else is have fun too thanks again

Kaytie

 

[dalamb]

If anybody wants to try KaytieKat's suggestion on this map, it's not too hard to give yourself a choice of which of the leaders to pick -- edit the WB save with a text editor and change the lines saying "PlayableCiv=0" to "PlayableCiv=1". If you do this with the Noble save all is as it should be; for the higher level saves you'll start with Archery etc. and Ghengis won't. I think this is why there are lots of saves for the PYL series.

It's easier just to do a custom Arboria game with Monty, of course. Or Ghandi, with his fast workers.

 

[Gocho]

Monarch/Marathon
Start-->1000bc

Spoiler :

I figure I'll play Khan the diplomat this game, great land to expand with so I'll go against the obvious Keshik spam and see how long I can stay peaceful.

Not to far in just settler spamming with 2 scientists here and there to keep research going, 2 more to settle in the next few turns then time to convince the world to gang up on ghandi who loves being in his own religion. Chopped henge and the GW in a border city mostly for the culture bonus as it was the only culture building available at the time to fight zara's culture off

Anyway Southern lands


And the about to be settled north


Must resist urge to kill Zara!

 

[Groogaroo]

Still slogging away here... Finding this tough going.

Update - 910AD/turn236 - Emporer/Epic (No Events)

Report

Spoiler :

After the last report I was desperatley trying to get to currency to avoid striking after absorbing both Zara and Roosevelt. Had to go to war with giglamesh purley to raze a few cities for funds.

Currency came and went my economic situation improved and decided to keep the war going with Gilgamesh. When he was down to 2 cities I declared peace as my march had stalled a bit and needed to rest my keshiks before finishing him off.

This is when Monty decided to declare on me so after several whips and lots of troops moving from North to South I eventually get the upper hand. I take a few cities (Including his pyramids city) but I wasn't really ready for war with Monty and again I have to declare peace when he's down to a couple of cities so I can regroup.

Unfortuantley before I get a chance to finish of either Giggles or Monty they both capitulate to Mehmed.

My cities are a mess, my economy confused, finances are a joke, my troops nearing their shelf life and I'm behind in tech and power on the two remaining big players Mehmed & Ghandi. But I do have the land advantage and I'm not too far off from the dom limit

Really this game has been a struggle from word go!

Here's the current situation...


Tech




Power




The last few dregs of my keshik army




Mongol lands




and the rest

Going forward? I could do with some advice

Spoiler :

Can I keep going with keshiks here (obviously building up more troops)? Or should I be thinking of trying to head for guilds while contiuing building keshiks for a mass upgrade to knights, or possibly holding out longer and going for Cuirassier's.

Either way I'm planning for a mass world war for the finish but a bit lost as to who to target next.

And here's the save, warts and all... It's a bit of a messy game!

 

[L-Plate Ruler]

Does anyone else play on normal speed?

I rushed, one, two then three of the AI on this map. But after teching for 500+ years at 0% and then getting rolled by nnn because I had no army I aborted the game.

So while learning about rushing I seem to have taken (read) advice or comments from Epic/Marathon players (in which this seems a much easier strategy and almost favors the human player) and applied this to a Normal speed game.

1. If playing this map on Normal, how many AI would you anticipate a reasonable Noble player to rush?
2. If on Normal you were to rush more than one AI, how would this be bank rolled?
3. How many cities would you expect to have before making the first, then second rush assuming the second rush came no more than five turns after completing the first?
4. By what year should the 'rush' be over and focus be put on infrastructure and economy?

I comfortably rushed the first AI after he had three cities and I had two. On hindsight I think I should have left it at this and maybe spammed two or three commerce cities to then fund an early war against AI #2.

Would you agree this is a sound idea or should I or a reasonable Noble player have been able to rush two AI without the economy tanking? In my game I had to rush the third to keep the income going. The need for gold necessitated the destruction of those cities.

 

[Gocho]

Playing on slower speeds certainly makes waring easier. I'll try and answer your questions, but I am far from the mass war expert!

1. 2+ up too all of them isn't out of the question on Noble and this small map
2. As soon as you get the prereq techs everything goes into production and the slider goes to 0% for good the money that builds up is your war chest while you build your units. After that when it all starts to fall apart it's about pushing the war on to stay out of strike via pillaging/taking cities or building wealth. If your going for the world early it is pretty easy to fail.
3. Depends on the rush, the Keshik rush is pretty late as it needs HBR so 4 is reasonable, Axe rushes work with 2 and of course the almighty warrior rush is of course 1!
4. The war shouldn't end, unless your razing almost every city to the ground you shouldn't take more then 1 person out early game, if your trying a zerg the world rush your basically going until you break financially, run into advanced units or win the game.

The "normal rush" is simply killing your nearest AI for his capitol and no competition for his land, extreme cases like this game allow for the full out zerg which is why 2+ opponents are dying to the early rush in some peoples games.

 

[L-Plate Ruler]

Great response, thanks Gocho.

I think I'll roll back to my save after taking out #2 and go from there. See how the world turns out when I stop razing cities.

Nice tip about saving cash when the gears of war are in motion. That technique might have let me take out 3 without tanking so hard.

 

[Gocho]

Monarch/Marathon
1000BC-->1000AD (lib)
Otherwise known as peaceful Khan lays cottages era

Spoiler :

I only layed one more city down in this stretch and basically just built up the core while making friends with my Buddhist block. Plenty of wonders and cottages were put up in this time.

A bit of luck!


Classic Oracle slingshot


Ok it wasn't all peace there was a fake war that almost lead to a very real war but fortunately my ally monty is hated much more then me


After calming things down a bit


Tech situation at end of turns


Main cities, though most are beasts due to the huge amount of food on this map!
Slowly cottaged Cap


GP farm, sadly building and not running max scientists atm


HE and most of my army that isn't being used to pump happiness with HR


And finally the North and south shot.




I'm the only one close to lib, figure I'll take democracy off it if I can wait that long then switch to end game civics and tech to space or try and UN it!

 

[lymond]

Great questions L-Plate. Regardless of how well I'm doing on noble now, I'm not the best at early rushes.

What sometimes seems missing in some strategy discussions is the finer details of a rush or some other quickie builds. The assumption is a lot of whipping is involved. However, just how much whipping is done. What do you do with one city to get out a bunch of warriors and how do you deal with the unhappiness or in this case maybe 3 or 4 cities to whip out what probably is quite a stack of Keshiks. Just how far do you take it?

On another note, this type of warmongering liking means you are on the losing end of research early on and definitely sacrificing wonders and tech goals.

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

Immortal / Normal - 1595 AD. Nevermind my last post, I restarted the game. When I reloaded because of the DOW it started to feel as cheating so I called that one a loss and restarted from scratch.

Spoiler :

I settled in place and had some really nice luck with the huts early on:





IIRC, I researched Mining, BW, AH, Writing, Pottery, HBR and went after Zara. When my troops seemed a little exhausted, I called him for a chat:



10 turns later...



Have a nice trip, mr. Yaqob!

After finishing him off, I kept building Keshiks. Mehmed kindly asked me to join him in his crusade to rid the world of the Americans and I was happy to oblige. When Roosevelt was down to a single city, I sent an emissary to his palace to discuss the terms of peace:



Can you believe it? FDR felt insecure in a dangerous world and sought Indian protection in the 10 turns of our peace treaty, which delayed his departure to Suryavarman's homeland. This is what Mongolia looked like then:







Fortunately, Genghis is a patient man and knows that good things come to spies who wait. (Uh, is there something wrong with this quote?) Some time later, Roosevelt decided that he didn't need Gandhi anymore. Bad call...



Send my regards to Zara!

I won Liberalism and went on an infra-structure whipping spree: universities, banks, markets and grocers were whipped all over the empire. Printing Press was our reward for winning Lib.



Mongolia then:





Then Montezuma once more attacked an unprepared Mongolia, but this time I could fight them off. You see, I had pretty much all the gold multipliers everywhere and was running Universal Suffrage, so I could raise a new horde real quick. Besides, I was close to Military Tradition for my Cuirassiers. I have to admit that it was my fault, though. Monte and Mehmed were fighting a war and I didn't see them stop. The red fists were misinterpreted and I got what was coming for me.



Not that it mattered, I upgraded some knights and keshiks to cuirassiers and there's no way Montezuma could beat me. I'm many times his size. Right now, we're still at war, but I already destroyed his stack and recaptured my cities. This is my land:



Glance:



Techs (I got a little behind because of the shutting off the research, but I'll get back to the top soon):



Karakorum:



Cities:



Civics:

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

Does anyone else play on normal speed?

I do.

I rushed, one, two then three of the AI on this map. But after teching for 500+ years at 0% and then getting rolled by nnn because I had no army I aborted the game.

I don't know. TMIT has a game of one of the Immortal Universities that he fought a Tanks armed AI with Rifles so being backwards is not the end of the world.

1. If playing this map on Normal, how many AI would you anticipate a reasonable Noble player to rush?

I don't know, but I rushed two on Immortal.

3. How many cities would you expect to have before making the first, then second rush assuming the second rush came no more than five turns after completing the first?

IIRC, I had 4 or 5 cities. Rushing with Keshins or HAs is not the same as rushing with axes. You have a lot more time so you don't need to jump from one rush to another. If your troops are healed and still numerous it can be immediately, but you surely have more than 5 turns to prepare for the second target.

4. By what year should the 'rush' be over and focus be put on infrastructure and economy?

You may never stop until you've sacked the whole world or when you get so big that you know that you will overcome the AIs sooner or later due to your sheer size.

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

@Groogaroo

Took a look at your save and I have one word to say to you, just one word: cottages!

Spoiler :

In the beginning, you were losing 29 per turn at 0% and were making 236 per turn.

Some cities had some very dubious tile assignment, such as these ones:

Spoiler :

After I changed them to cottages, your situation improved 100%. It is sometimes wise to let the governor in charge of most cities, just selecting what tiles to work in your most specialized ones.

Then we decided to make a transition, but had to get help from the world, so we did.

Spoiler :

I should have demanded gold from Mehmed's vassals first, that way there would be no peace treaty to prevent them from giving in to our demands.

As I had switched your worked tiles and had some more money, I could redirect your cities' builds:


Then this guy came in and I used him to start a golden age and switch civics.

Spoiler :

Most of your cities were Jewish so I converted to Judaism. You're not here to make friends, are you?

I did some extensive whipping and also sold cows to Mehmed and Gandhi, netting us +22 per turn. When the golden age ended, your cities looked like this:



And your economy:





Now you are losing 14 per turn at 30% . You now have 164 per turn, but it will improve a lot once your cottages start maturing and will overcome your original science generation. All you have to do is let your cities grow back what was whipped.

Toss in some Grocers (or even better - Banks) when you can and you'll see you'll be running at 60-70% and will be able to attack their Muskets with Infantries or Tanks.

 

[Groogaroo]

Thanks for the feedback I wish you had posted just an hour earlier! I've already played a fair way into the next phase of the game But its good to see what you did with the save. Really appreciate your input, cheers

Ummm... here's what I actually did.

building up for the final war

Update - 1295AD - Emporer/Epic (No Events)

Spoiler :

With my Keshiks almost past their sell by date I beelined Guilds, save a few GP for some golden ages and litrally went on a whip bonanza.


The powergraph after whipping




Main stack




Secondary stack




I'm kind of going for brute force here! I've also whipped my cities a bit too hard so there's no turning back I won't be able to catch up in tech after this and have no economy as such to bring back form the brink. It's kind of conquer or die from here on in.

Well whatever happens the game will be over soon for better or worse.