Non-Incan Deity BC Space

[Anysense]

T300
Nothing in particular. Just anothe Sushi spread failure and a lot of management.

The Strike Monster Menu
1. Praetorians in neutral land.
2. Galleons and galleys in neutral.
3. Archers in neutral and Praetorians in my culture.
4. Executives in neutral.
5. Workers in neutral.
6. Scouts/explorers in neutral and transports in my culture.
7. Workboats in neutral and archers in my culture.
8. Executives in my culture.
9. Workers in my culture.
10. Workboats in my culture.

Praets in neutral are the best, but it takes time to get them there. Still, Praets inside my territory can save transports in neutral carrying workers or executives. Empty ones will have to hide in my culture unless I offer them as sacrifice. The last line of defence is workboats, they actually allow spreading to islands, as long as ships with executives end their turns in my culture.

 

[Anysense]

T301
Mining is 49 and there are more resources! Sushi is 27, a bit slower than I thought it would be. Spreading 4 Mining and 5 Sushi.

BPT is 1010 and can hardly get lower. There are 153 free citizens making 459 , a couple of cities keeping overflow and many cities settled only to claim corporate resources, stuck at size 1 with 2 citizens building research.

T302
Mining - 51, Sushi 28. I forgot to build the missionary that would trigger missionary gold Spreading 3/0, six executives board transports, lucky they were there. There were 2 goody huts but none gave me gold

So far only 19 forges, 25 factories and 1 coal plant (in Rome). BPT 1155

T303
Sushi gains 1. Spreading 4/5.

Making 1167 with 157 cities. GPT just passed -10000, but who cares?

T304
Spreading 5/5, no change to corporatins. Built 18 more factories and 12 powerplants.

New record - 941

T305
Sushi is 30, Mining is still 51. Spreading 4/5.

Research is up a bit - 1606, as several cities got all hammer multipliers and a few of them are building research.

Two galleys vanished. Not that I needed them. I think I already have made too much effort keeping them alive.

T306
Sushi gains one more food and Mining is 53! The whole map is scouted now and I see that Mining will reach maximum at 55, this is about as much as I could have hoped for. Spreading 2/5. Only 2 Mining spreads because 3 will go to islands next turn, I'm almost done spreading to mainland.

Built 21 forges, 59 factories, 28 coal plants. It may saound impressive but not With Mining in 106 cities. It's so sloooow. May be, I'm just being lazy? Perhaps, a bit. It is mostly very weak cities that lack buildings now. Making 1775 with 169 cities.

There is another interesting number: manufacturing goods went from 5936 to 9767 over last 6 turns. That could be 9767 if there was not so much left to build.

T307
Mining - 54, Sushi - 32. Spreading 4/5.

Making 2001; 171 cities. Getting close to domination limit 75.26/76%. On the next turn I will create a colony or liberate a couple of cities without corporations.

New York had a slave revolt again! Three times in this city and six in total It reminds me: I have been in Slavery for 10 turns

T308
Forges/factories/power is 27/71/41. I think it is time to go back to Caste+FR. This is going to be a very long turn.

 

[happysheep]

When

T301
Mining is 49 and there are more resources! Sushi is 27, a bit slower than I thought it would be. Spreading 4 Mining and 5 Sushi.

BPT is 1010 and can hardly get lower. There are 153 free citizens making 459 , a couple of cities keeping overflow and many cities settled only to claim corporate resources, stuck at size 1 with 2 citizens building research.

T302
Mining - 51, Sushi 28. I forgot to build the missionary that would trigger missionary gold Spreading 3/0, six executives board transports, lucky they were there. There were 2 goody huts but none gave me gold

So far only 19 forges, 25 factories and 1 coal plant (in Rome). BPT 1155

T303
Sushi gains 1. Spreading 4/5.

Making 1167 with 157 cities. GPT just passed -10000, but who cares?

T304
Spreading 5/5, no change to corporatins. Built 18 more factories and 12 powerplants.

New record - 941

T305
Sushi is 30, Mining is still 51. Spreading 4/5.

Research is up a bit - 1606, as several cities got all hammer multipliers and a few of them are building research.

Two galleys vanished. Not that I needed them. I think I already have made too much effort keeping them alive.

T306
Sushi gains one more food and Mining is 53! The whole map is scouted now and I see that Mining will reach maximum at 55, this is about as much as I could have hoped for. Spreading 2/5. Only 2 Mining spreads because 3 will go to islands next turn, I'm almost done spreading to mainland.

Built 21 forges, 59 factories, 28 coal plants. It may saound impressive but not With Mining in 106 cities. It's so sloooow. May be, I'm just being lazy? Perhaps, a bit. It is mostly very weak cities that lack buildings now. Making 1775 with 169 cities.

There is another interesting number: manufacturing goods went from 5936 to 9767 over last 6 turns. That could be 9767 if there was not so much left to build.

T307
Mining - 54, Sushi - 32. Spreading 4/5.

Making 2001; 171 cities. Getting close to domination limit 75.26/76%. On the next turn I will create a colony or liberate a couple of cities without corporations.

New York had a slave revolt again! Three times in this city and six in total It reminds me: I have been in Slavery for 10 turns

T308
Forges/factories/power is 27/71/41. I think it is time to go back to Caste+FR. This is going to be a very long turn.

when do you think your spaceship is going to arrive now?

 

[Anysense]

When

when do you think your spaceship is going to arrive now?

I think it will bee about t340 (100BC) launch and t370 (200AD) landing. Thats 11 turns later than @WastinTime did. I got Mining 11 turns later, 10 turns later Medicine, then AL was 11 turns later. It seems that my Dark Age will be a couple of turns shorter, though. Organized and more early expansion helps here, so I may be able to reduce the difference by a couple of turns.

 

[Anysense]

Some of the cities that will build spaceship need a lot of preparation. That may include up to 3 overwhipped buildings, standard 375 overflow from lab or chain overflow lab->WW for 500+ hammers. Preparing a lab, a world wonder and three other fairly large buildings - most likely industrial park, hospital and NPP - costs a lot of hammers. I should start doing it soon, may be even right now.

The most troublesome is Paris, which is supposed to build one of the Engines. It is currently only size 5 with 45 food surplus. With that and granary storing exatly 50% food every single time Paris can grow to size 20 in 22 turns. But will food surplus stay that high? Considering that granary will not always work perfectly I'd better find a way to keep food as high as 50. There are 21 Sushi resources I expect to collect soon, it will bring Sushi up 8 to the total of 41. I could also add a couple of farms.

Farms take 10 workerturns to build. All in all Paris requires 188 workerturns to get into final state, 208 with two temporary farms. At size 20 packed with mines and workshops Paris will have 104 from tiles, 55 from Mining and 2 from free engineer; 161 base production. With 3 chops and overflow from lab Engine: 1920-161*7-3*90-375=148 base hammers. An overwhipped building with 300 base hammer cost (such as industrial park) can add 139 at most. Industrial park also adds another free engineer, thats 2*5=10 more hammers over 5 turns.

How that would look like
F-1: Lab with -> 375 overflow
F+0: Engine 0+(161+375+3*90)*2.5 -> 2015/4800 on the next turn
F+1: Industrial park (base hammers) 440/300+161 -> 300 overflow
F+2: Engine 2015+(163+300)*2.5=3172/1920
F+3: Engine 3172+163*2.5=3172+407=3579/4800
F+4: Engine 3579+407=3986/4800
F+5: Engine 3986+407=4393/4800
F+6: Engine 4393+407=4800/4800
F+7: Launch!

This is too close, isn't it? And Paris will need 1 extra pop to whip IP. I should consider using one more overwhipped building, hospital will do. Paris will also need a grocer to adress health issue.

Not that much of a problem after all. There will be time to build research and executives.

Spoiler :

Edit: I forgot observatory!

 

[jnebbe]

@Anysense Would you mind explaining strike eco? To my understanding from WT's post you go into strike and then build units to keep up with strike disbanding while building research in all other cities? (what happens if you're in strike and run out of units?)
It seems like the longer this goes on, the more units you'll be building->less cities building research so you must be pretty close to getting all the techs you want, but then whats the point in overhauling the entire economy when you're close to finishing teching?

 

[Anysense]

@jnebbe the whole point of strike is not to pay huge expenses. My gpt is -14379 now with only 10456 hammer output, that is even if I build wealth everywhere I can't maintain any kind economy, because expenses exceed my +. But in strike I could be teching at over 11000 bpt if I set every city to build research. In short it is the difference between not being able to tech at all and making 11000 per turn.

Sacrifices are required only to keep certain units alive. While I'm actively settling new cities I need my transports to survive in neutral. While I'm spreading to islands I need transports and executives to survive in my culture. That requires military units. After that I only have to build some workboats and get them out to neutral territory to keep my workers. Obviously, I seek to minimize sacrifices and not to waste workerturns, workers are supposed to live just long enough to get the job done. Once all but strikeproof units are gone nothing will happen, there are no other effects of strike, only slider fixed at 100% and disbanding units.

Currently I'm still building a lot of stuff but research will be back on soon enough.

 

[WastinTime]

I did some testing and selecting GP does not seem to do anything

There's no magic or randomness. It simply uses the closest GP to the one you choose to trigger the GAge.
Great thread btw! I wasn't aware of it until I was tagged in post #124.

 

[Anysense]

There's no magic or randomness. It simply uses the closest GP to the one you choose to trigger the GAge.
Great thread btw! I wasn't aware of it until I was tagged in post #124.

Good to know you could learn something here, although orders of magnitude less than I learned from your thread.

The final part is a bit boring, a lot of management, calculations of overflow and evaluation of what is still worth investing. A few things also require coordination and planning. I played a few turns but can't bring myself to write it up.

 

[happysheep]

I just had an idea. If some AI creates a colony, then
1) the colony starts off from 100 gpp for a great person
2) it “inherits” the ep points you had towards it’s creator
Right? So couldn’t you just
1) make ai create colony
2) give colony city capable of generating great merchant Super quickly
3) colony generates great merchant and cashes in
4) ship spy to colony city
5) capture all cities of colony except the one you spy is in
6)recapture all, give back to creator ai
7) repeat if u want

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

Even 100 points seems like a long time to wait, given you would need to give up something with early-game wonders (or is there a way to encourage AI to run merchats? maybe an island city with seafood but no lighthouse or something?). If you had 10 GPP / turn (i guess maybe just 5 /turn with pacifism?), then that's still 10 turns of lost income from a hefty-sized city.

 

[Anysense]

It is a wonderfully mad idea, but probably not very practical. It requires military units to be alive long enough to take a city, to begin with. Could be a knight working as military police, or any unit acting as such already loaded on a 7-move galleon. This way it could be even infantry if you need some force. If you gift AI to Banking for a free specialist then they will have a longbow sooner or later.

Then you need a spy surviving in the enemy territory, so it is only for early stages of strike. Besides, I have no problem with making overflow gold with workboats, as I need quite a few to net Sushi resources and later to feed the strike monster.

It might be interesting to try and make AI bulb something. I selfteched Optics in this game. Is it possible to trick AI into bulbing it?

 

[happysheep]

Even 100 points seems like a long time to wait, given you would need to give up something with early-game wonders (or is there a way to encourage AI to run merchats? maybe an island city with seafood but no lighthouse or something?). If you had 10 GPP / turn (i guess maybe just 5 /turn with pacifism?), then that's still 10 turns of lost income from a hefty-sized city.

Colonies start with all the beginning civics (right?) so u could just get a market and grocer in there so they would work all those slots. Maybe the creators deriative civ could be some civ with a leader with the PHI trait which would make it just 5 turns with 4 merchants

 

[happysheep]

It is a wonderfully mad idea, but probably not very practical. It requires military units to be alive long enough to take a city, to begin with. Could be a knight working as military police, or any unit acting as such already loaded on a 7-move galleon. This way it could be even infantry if you need some force. If you gift AI to Banking for a free specialist then they will have a longbow sooner or later.

Then you need a spy surviving in the enemy territory, so it is only for early stages of strike. Besides, I have no problem with making overflow gold with workboats, as I need quite a few to net Sushi resources and later to feed the strike monster.

It might be interesting to try and make AI bulb something. I selfteched Optics in this game. Is it possible to trick AI into bulbing it?

Ya I had a few ideas with that
1) infinite great merchant gold
2) make them settle it? (Might not be worth it though)
3) academy
4) bulb certain techs with GS or GM or something, and then trade for it
5) free shrine?
Etc etc

 

[happysheep]

It is a wonderfully mad idea, but probably not very practical. It requires military units to be alive long enough to take a city, to begin with. Could be a knight working as military police, or any unit acting as such already loaded on a 7-move galleon. This way it could be even infantry if you need some force. If you gift AI to Banking for a free specialist then they will have a longbow sooner or later.

Then you need a spy surviving in the enemy territory, so it is only for early stages of strike. Besides, I have no problem with making overflow gold with workboats, as I need quite a few to net Sushi resources and later to feed the strike monster.

It might be interesting to try and make AI bulb something. I selfteched Optics in this game. Is it possible to trick AI into bulbing it?

Actually I was thinking for early-mid game? Like instead of whipping and chopping cities into wonder failgold all over one could just dedicate 1 city to generating a great merchant for the same amount of gold or maybe do both at once

 

[Anysense]

Actually I was thinking for early-mid game? Like instead of whipping and chopping cities into wonder failgold all over one could just dedicate 1 city to generating a great merchant for the same amount of gold or maybe do both at once

Yes, it certainly makes everything much easier if you operate normally and you also will need considerable amounts of gold not just a few hundred. It might be possible to do it repeatedly with the same city, and there is a post about keeping buildings in captured cities https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-10-year-veteran.574724/page-23#post-14529474

 

[happysheep]

Yes, it certainly makes everything much easier if you operate normally and you also will need considerable amounts of gold not just a few hundred. It might be possible to do it repeatedly with the same city, and there is a post about keeping buildings in captured cities https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-10-year-veteran.574724/page-23#post-14529474

So would it work as another source of income generation or not?

 

[Anysense]

So would it work as another source of income generation or not?

Of course, if there is a way to make it work more or less consistently, it is potentially thousands of gold. It might help to shave off a couple of turns to Mining. I will certainly do some research if I ever try to dethrone WastinTime. Or may br Kaitzilla will do it, he played a few games recently on Normal and Epic, but I'm taking a break from HoF for another half a year at least.

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

I see 4 issues at play:

Timing
Earlier is always better for payoff, especially if there is a Strike window timing [Thinking about it, maybe that's not a problem - you could use the gained $ during your turn to pay for corp spread, instead of overflow (though that didnt seem like a limiting factor in this game).]

So, if you need banking for Mercantalism, that delays this significantly. The other option is 'forcing' the AI to work a specialist. Or some other way...

Getting the points
If you need to build the merchant slots, that would require a market/grocer, which would need a pretty large investment and a healthy-sized city. The alternative would be caste, which risks a sci / artist [reduce # of artist turns by putting a religion in the city, needed for pacifism anyway].

With Pacifism, a single specialist would get 100 points in 17 turns. Cutting that seems critical in a BC space game, so 9 turns with 2 specialists seems ideal. I think that would be most likely with Mercantalism + 1 regular specialist.

Forcing a specialist
Bases on what the governor seems to do for the human player (is that the same as how the AI operates?), I think you would only get a specialist worked on a 1 pop city if no other options existed. if you had a 3x3 desert section that might work, but because this requires gidting, having that appear on a island seems unlikely. More likely would be a 1 tile island without seafood. Might want to have seafood 2 tiles away for your later city use or to help setup, but to prevent the civ from working it after border pop, you would want your own city to be on a nearby island dominating that culture.

Benefiting
I see 3 possible ways to benefit:

If the civ pops a G Merch, and runs a Trade Mission (it would need a galley to get to another city, unless you had a connected city which would make the orchestration more difficult I tbink), It would have cash. If it doesnt use that cash elsewhere (trade with abother AI?), you could nab it in 2 ways: spy mission (again more difficult to orchestrate), or sell tech (has its own problems in timing you getting a tech after creating a colony, but if you had a few of these schemes at once, that could become more efficient).

Given the risk of the AI trading gold to someone else, I dont think you can really wait before capitalizing, meaning having the vassal act as an "offshore bank" to cash in on for corp spread during strike would be difficult.

3rd way to benefit: AI settles the great person, at a future benefit of 3 rep beakers + some amount of beakers, hammers, gold, or food, depending on GP generated. If you could reliably do this every 10 turns, then in 50 turns you would have 15 rep beakers, and 5 food/30 gold if merchants, 5 hammers 30 beakers if scientists (etc.). Given the length of time involved, I dont think if this payoff makes sense - when you retake it, the city wont have much other infrastructure anyway, so what good is a paltry 50-beakers-ish output after 50 turns invested.?

There has to be a better way!

What if you could pump a great scientist every 3-5 turns or even faster? After 50 turns, you would have 10-15 settled great scientists (assuming the AI doesnt bulb them).

Why not up the insanity, and gift the Great Library (8 GPP/turn)? Maybe with the National Epic pre-installed (+100% output with a beneficial but risky 2 extra artist points), maybe even (pardon the craziness) university of Sankore (another 2 base GPP & oxford (another 2 base GPP), Temple of Artemis (beneficial but risky extra 5 GPP) in place? Running pacifism, that would be 21x 300% = 63. GPP / turn, grabbing a new great person every 2 turns.

After 50 turns, you would have 25 settled great people. If they all pop as scientists, thats churning 25 hammers and 225 base beakers per turn. With Oxford already (nat wonders stay, if you have enough city culture to avoid revolt on recapture, I believe) and a quick buildup of library, university, and observitory + the obvious academy, you get 225% multipliers, or 730 beakers / turn!

Is there any way to actually manage something close to this, in a way worth giving up such a great city for such a period of time? I have no idea. It seems incredibly unlikely, as the better the concept, the more valuable a city you lose access to for a period of time.

Even just a core of G Lib (found it with a G Eng where best suited?) would be 8 GP; throw in a free mercantalism specialist and thats 11, which x 2 for pacifism would be a new g scientist every 5 turns...

Bonus lunacy
Hell - if you structure the tech path to lib environmentalism ASAP and plop the Nat Park on an island [G Eng or US buyout] with... 16 preserved forests/ jungles, then that's 50 base GPP (incl points from Nat Park) which is 100 with pacifism, or... 1 Great Person per turn! [No amount of madness leads me to believe getting the 300 points needed for 2 great ppl/ turn is possible, even with Nat Epic, which would hamper the bulbing-beeline to Lib anyway, and prevent oxford from going in the city later].

Wait 50 turns, and you have 150 base beakers from rep alone on which you obviously dump an academy and oxford et al for a cool 500 BPT!! If they were all scientists, that would be 1500 BPT in direct science alone!!!

Time to do some testing...

 

[WastinTime]

2 great ppl/ turn is possible

I think you need 2 cities to get 2/turn. But I've never tried it (no one has in a real game I'm sure.) If you test it, I look forward to reading the result.