Non useless buildings

I was yes. I suppose early wars are alway an option vs the AI. Even then, without vassal states and tech trading military powers spikes come later and the war hurts way more.
 
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Vassal states don't really matter much. For example no tech trading would be a more significant change.
 
civac said:
Let me reitereate that people here play under extreme conditions that acerbate the problem with some buildings. Deity/immortal with tech trading leads to an absolutely blistering tech pace. By taking advantage of the AI the human player can additionally gain gold that he should not have access to and can forego building a standing army which would slow the game down also. Vassal states and capitulations further circumvent the necessity to build a proper economy as vassal AIs can research for you and conquest is much faster.

Tech trading is a fundamentally broken mechanic that only works in SP because the AI is specifically programmed to not use it in an effective manner. Likewise, Vassal States are also a terrible mechanic. I do understand why people like these in SP. They cut down on annoying micromanagement/army logistics and add some interaction. They are not good for balance though.
Click to expand...

Your comment on the issue is dead on. Tech trading is a disgustingly ludicrous and lame mechanic (very poorly implemented too) which gives the upper hand to many players to imagine that buildings are not worth the effort. Of course if you play just to achieve victory as soon as possible (cero role playing) in SP and the conditions of the map & neighbours let you expand to victory (not always the case) , gaining access to techs rapidly via build wealth/science and gimmickily obtaining doble or triple value for those techs adquired; yes, many buildings will fall out of the bucket.
Of course vassal states reinforce TT abuse to a higher level, rendering even more buildings innecessary.

I never ever play tech traiding, and games take a completely different , more profound and enjoyable path. Everything is much more balanced with TT off. Moreover, AI's in a better AI mod gets much better at war, and much less prone to abuse by the human, thus giving that "less reward to war" which was mentioned.
My very simple advice for making buildings more valuable will by just take away TT. Otherwise the game should take a split around TT if it were to balance individual buildings. This means building would become overpowered if they were buffed with TT off.
 
I think the game is very enjoyable as it is. You make it sound like deity is a walk in the park due to tech trading - I can tell you that it's not and many players are never able to beat deity. I do agree with you to a certain amount and I enjoy watching for example Lain's latest that is without tech trading. Of course a player of that caliber is a favorite to win the game even with harder settings.
 
sampsa said:
I think the game is very enjoyable as it is. You make it sound like deity is a walk in the park due to tech trading - I can tell you that it's not and many players are never able to beat deity. I do agree with you to a certain amount and I enjoy watching for example Lain's latest that is without tech trading. Of course a player of that caliber is a favorite to win the game even with harder settings.
Click to expand...

It is enjoyable, of course.. civ after all. All my games were with TT on, and i remember memorable positions of tech Gurú, intermediating techs between civs with no contact with each other, for instance. It was nice even in MP. Afterwards I realized how historically innacurate sharing technology (ideas) among diferent cultures, the way the game presents it, was (there are much better implementations modded of course); and I got tired on how much TT limited game styles. I changed to TT off and boy, pandora box opened for me.

On regards to deity, I am positive it is never easy to beat. I am maybe saying TT makes it beatable at all. Tech is used to get loads of gold as mentioned, it becomes a multi valuable asset; and more importantly it is the cornerstone in manipulating the other AI's. Diplomacy being the upmost important edge needed to beat the level.
 
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This has been discussed before, but fits in this thread.

Was looking through the unique buildings, and thinking which buildings get upgraded enough that I would consider building them when I would not otherwise.

Interesting:
  • More experience:
    • Citadel - If you have stone, it's fun. Doesn't combo with Conquistador's though.
    • Ger - Not bad. Wouldn't build outside the capital (if that) for HA rush, but otherwise somewhat compelling.
  • Courthouses -
    • Sacrifical Altar - cheaper + less whip anger - seems fun, but I haven't really played Zulu's that much. Seems like it'd be even better at Marathon speed, esp with good food.
    • Rathaus - 75% is nice in bigger empires, or with corps.
    • Ziggurat - meh. cheaper is nice. does it matter that they unlock at priestood? I don't think so. Still probably don't build many.
  • Dike - Kinda late game to care. Cool for water + Space. But this is the only building that allows you to build it in places where you couldn't otherwise.
Nice bonus but doesn't affect where I build it:
  • Terrace
  • Forum
  • Feitoria - that's a lot of hammers for the commerce.
  • Totem Pole - Meh. I wouldn't especially build it in a city for the archer experience.
  • Assembly Plant - I feel like I'm either in a game where I want factories pretty much everywhere, or not at all. So this is a nice bonus, but doesn't dictate whether I build them in the first place. Pretty fun with Frederick though. That's some cheap factories.
  • Shale Plant
  • Stele and Pavillion
Meh:
  • Happy or Health bonuses, or +10% bonuses, or extra specialists. The Salon can even be counter productive for polluting your GP pool.
 
Just because tech trading (and tech path) is the most important decisions you make in the game (besides DoWs) does not inherently mean it's overpowered or game ruining. There's an option to turn it off and as far as I can tell most people rarely turn it off. If it was as simple as it giving you an unfair advantage I'd turn it off all the time because I'm a masochist. Civ 5 replaced tech trading with "research agreements" and the result was decision making was significantly decreased and even the casual 5 player felt like something was missing.
If we stick to civ 4 I can tell you the immediate result of removing tech trading on deity is that espionage economy becomes much stronger. I like EE more than most, but I'm happy limiting myself to niche situations where it's somewhat justified. I wouldn't want to play EE every game, because not only are tech trading decisions removed, but you make few decisions on the tech path itself.

I don't think buildings are useless in civ 4. Useless is a big word, and what really matters is do they create interesting decisions? Not all buildings should be common place. Some (like aqueduct) tend to make sense only in the capital and only sometimes - and that's fine. That's still a decision. Most late buildings aren't inherently useless just because most games end before alpha centauri. I'd still want the game to give me new buildings that might be worth building if my game ever went that far. Most of the other buildings that get ignored are more accurately described as "niche" and they do make sense in the context of an espionage economy, or a culture victory - and regardless they make sense for the AI to build for these uses. The only truly useless building I can think of is the bunker. Bomb shelters actually work, because the AI is very predictable with ICBMs.
 
drewisfat said:
Just because tech trading (and tech path) is the most important decisions you make in the game (besides DoWs) does not inherently mean it's overpowered or game ruining. There's an option to turn it off and as far as I can tell most people rarely turn it off. If it was as simple as it giving you an unfair advantage I'd turn it off all the time because I'm a masochist.
Click to expand...

I wouldn´t go as far as to say TT is game ruining, but game limiting/narrowing pretty much; as you are compelled to do so copiously to get on par within any game running the feature.
Again, don't believe it as unfair as other players will use it against you too (never mind the human outplays the AIs, this happens at every level of decision making). But TT does in fact umbalance some aspects of the game (buildings being the OP issue of the day), which would otherwise be very much good to go.

Agree on the concept of niche building. Many players tend to disregard the oportunity cost and specially the build order (possibly due to playing on a very comfy difficulty level I pressume); thus getting little reward for the effort.. but clearly a bad call in the first place.

One other thing Drewis, decision making concerning the tech path becomes thoroughly a matter of developement, as technology ceases to be a common trade good of multiple value (2x, 3x.. 5x :rolleyes:) So TT economy is no more. Dead. In fact, out of the blue, mind process changes too. You no longer choose tech revolving trade at all, your only focus being domestic growth/military, and any plan along them.
Does my country need to enter the iron age (IW) and risk not to get iron immediately or do I start the path of aesthetics->literature-> drama (you know the drill..) to get some of the wonders and the cultural buildings, and keep defending with chariots and archers? Risking to get DoWed in the middle of the process.
May I rather develop my wealth towards guilds & banking or do I aim to education and try to get liberalism, since I surely won`t be getting both for the price of one. Countless examples of the sort.
...
Slower speed games exacerbate decision making here, as you´ll need 15-30 turns to get some techs, depending on map, economy, developement, war/peace.
If you plan to bribe an AI towards DoW (and grab the many benefits) you will have to spend the cash, many times the cost of half a tech for instance. It will hurt of course, you no longer get to gift away the cake and eat it as well. So on so forth.
CivIV takes a grip on balance when TT is off. Just saying :mischief:
 
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SittinDown said:
This has been discussed before, but fits in this thread.

Was looking through the unique buildings, and thinking which buildings get upgraded enough that I would consider building them when I would not otherwise.

Interesting:
  • More experience:
    • Citadel - If you have stone, it's fun. Doesn't combo with Conquistador's though.
    • Ger - Not bad. Wouldn't build outside the capital (if that) for HA rush, but otherwise somewhat compelling.
  • Courthouses -
    • Sacrifical Altar - cheaper + less whip anger - seems fun, but I haven't really played Zulu's that much. Seems like it'd be even better at Marathon speed, esp with good food.
    • Rathaus - 75% is nice in bigger empires, or with corps.
    • Ziggurat - meh. cheaper is nice. does it matter that they unlock at priestood? I don't think so. Still probably don't build many.
  • Dike - Kinda late game to care. Cool for water + Space. But this is the only building that allows you to build it in places where you couldn't otherwise.
Nice bonus but doesn't affect where I build it:
  • Terrace
  • Forum
  • Feitoria - that's a lot of hammers for the commerce.
  • Totem Pole - Meh. I wouldn't especially build it in a city for the archer experience.
  • Assembly Plant - I feel like I'm either in a game where I want factories pretty much everywhere, or not at all. So this is a nice bonus, but doesn't dictate whether I build them in the first place. Pretty fun with Frederick though. That's some cheap factories.
  • Shale Plant
  • Stele and Pavillion
Meh:
  • Happy or Health bonuses, or +10% bonuses, or extra specialists. The Salon can even be counter productive for polluting your GP pool.
Click to expand...

Assembly plant with Frederick I would to build them in more places. Similarly, Ikhanda with Shaka, and Odeon with Pericles for border culture fights.

Ball courts and hammams where I would not normally do so (not the garden)

I like the Salon because the late-game Great Persons are for golden ages and I need a variety of them.
 
The various buildings that give espionage are good, and they multiply against each other, you build a bunch of spy structures in a city and you can get a good espionage income to steal tech or whatever else while keeping 0 espionage slider, don't underestimate espionage. Court house does only give 2 espionage(before multipliers), but its build cost verses income saved is decent in close cities and can be big in far cities, even if you aren't a nation that gives it half cost.

Various buildings can make a big difference, not sure what you're talking about. True you don't necessarily want every building in every city, but still.
 
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Most buildings help you in some way in a typical situation. That is not the issue. The problem is the opportunity cost of building them vs building military/Wealth (assuming workers/settlers aren't needed atm). The faster the game the more getting certain military tech timings faster matters and the less time buildings have to pay off. If you estimate the numbers it turns out that often building a courthouse or market is just not worth it compared to running Wealth.
 
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