Noob liberalism question

[dennisg]

Hi again,
Why is there so much emphasis on getting Liberalism first...is it just for the free tech? If so, then what is the best free tech to pick?

Thanks!

 

[Redcoat Captain]

+ Free Speech
+ Free Religion

2 very powerful Civis become available upon getting Liberalism. The free tech is handy, but the +100 in all cities and + 2 from all Towns from Free Speech and the + 1 per religion in each city and + 10% in all cities from Free Religion is a HUGE power boost to earn in just 1 turn

 

[Iranon]

Education is an important asset to tech well, especially if you don't have much land. The civics might be useful. It's on a tech path the AI usually doesn't go for, setting you up for gainful tech trades. It's often possible to snatch an expensive tech with it (Steel is a favourite... cannons vs. longbows? Sign me up.). It prevents the most advanced AI from running way.

If you can contend for the liberalism race without making undue sacrifices, go for it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Iranon mentioned its probable most valued asset - trade value along that route. The AIs don't do beelines well and they don't vary up their tech paths much, so we see them delaying this tech path in order to get longbows and knights all the time. The logical answer to keep up is to trade, but I wonder if this part of the game isn't a little bit stale because of the non-variety in AI tech path ----> later on at least some go for MT, some for democracy, some toward mass media, and some for chemistry/ms/steel first, and then follow down those paths to some degree...but almost nobody goes education early in terms of the AI, and that makes the lib path far stronger than it would be otherwise.

 

[Shurdus]

Iranon mentioned its probable most valued asset - trade value along that route. The AIs don't do beelines well and they don't vary up their tech paths much, so we see them delaying this tech path in order to get longbows and knights all the time. The logical answer to keep up is to trade, but I wonder if this part of the game isn't a little bit stale because of the non-variety in AI tech path ----> later on at least some go for MT, some for democracy, some toward mass media, and some for chemistry/ms/steel first, and then follow down those paths to some degree...but almost nobody goes education early in terms of the AI, and that makes the lib path far stronger than it would be otherwise.

This, plus the free tech. Getting an expensive free tech for warring like Iranon mentioned means you can smack the bejeezus - to say it in TheMeInTeam-speak - out of your opponent. When this is done skillfully it can be so effective that the AI can really have no defense.

The civics are not that big of a deal in my book. Getting +10% beakers and slightly more happyness is nice and everything, but I find it is often not worth it considering it means giving up the diplomatic safety sharing a religion can provide.

 

[Willem]

If so, then what is the best free tech to pick?

Whatever requires the most beakers. I almost always go for Astronomy myself, it's one of the most expensive techs of that time period.

 

[Ghpstage]

If so, then what is the best free tech to pick?

I always try for steel, its the games best tiebreaker tech. Cannons are amazing, they allow you to run over AIs easily for quite a long period capturing huge numbers of cities.
The downside is you need to research machinery/engineering/chemistry to do it, delaying liberalism and can be a bit of a gambles against AIs.
If I decide I won't be able to get it I will go for, in order;
Chemistry, Astronomy, Military Tradition, Nationalism (needed for Mil trad anyway) and very rarely Replaceable Parts.

 

[Bushface]

Cannon - tchah ! I've just attacked a city with 20% cultural defence plus Walls, using cannon which are supposed to do 12% bombardment damage - against which Walls should apparently be ineffective. True enough, with a cannon selected the original defence shows as 20%: the popup says "You have reduced the defence to 38%" on the first shot, which is 50% (for Walls) minus 12% (bombardment); the city bar shows defence down to 15% instead of the 8% I expected.

 

[Willem]

Cannon - tchah ! I've just attacked a city with 20% cultural defence plus Walls, using cannon which are supposed to do 12% bombardment damage - against which Walls should apparently be ineffective.

That only applies if the Cannon were actually attacking the city. The Wall's bombardment bonus still applies however. IIRC, the bombardment bonus doesn't ever become obsolete either.

 

[michmbk]

One of the things I like to do with lib is take nationalism as the free tech, build taj (usually you're the first to nationalism as well, so big edge in building taj), while building the strongest melee/mounted unit I can in other cities (often maces or knights) and beelining steel. Hit Taj and switch to the key lib civics anarchy-free - that speeds up the steel beeline too.

After the taj golden age, use a great person for a second golden age - because at that point, my civ is big enough to benefit from a golden age. A 20 turn golden age on epic (30 turns if I happened to build MoM). Hopefully all of this allows me to hit steel midway through the second golden age, switch to slavery, whip out a cannon in each city - instant devastation if the AI doesn't have rifles yet, and then switch back to caste before the golden age ends.

I've found this timing often works out pretty well that I hit steel a couple turns into that second golden age, and can go to slavery/vassalage/theocracy for 5 turns, whip as much as I can, and then switch back to economic civics.

 

[Ghpstage]

Cannon - tchah ! I've just attacked a city with 20% cultural defence plus Walls, using cannon which are supposed to do 12% bombardment damage - against which Walls should apparently be ineffective. True enough, with a cannon selected the original defence shows as 20%: the popup says "You have reduced the defence to 38%" on the first shot, which is 50% (for Walls) minus 12% (bombardment); the city bar shows defence down to 15% instead of the 8% I expected.

Cannons still need to bombard the walls down too despite ignoring them in attack. I explained it wih examples in this thread

That only applies if the Cannon were actually attacking the city. The Wall's bombardment bonus still applies however. IIRC, the bombardment bonus doesn't ever become obsolete either.

The bombardment resistance from walls doesn't apply to cannons, only the existance of the wall/castle defense.

 

[Willem]

The bombardment resistance from walls doesn't apply to cannons, only the existance of the wall/castle defense.

I could very well be wrong but I don't think that's how it works. AFAIK, Cannons are still affected by the bombardment bonus of both Walls and Castles. That would fit in with Bushface's numbers. They just don't have any effect if the cannon attacks the city head on for the collateral damage. And I seem to recall reading somewhere that the bombardment bonus remains even after Walls/Castles become obsolete.

 

[Ghpstage]

I could very well be wrong but I don't think that's how it works. AFAIK, Cannons are still affected by the bombardment bonus of both Walls and Castles. That would fit in with Bushface's numbers. They just don't have any effect if the cannon attacks the city head on for the collateral damage. And I seem to recall reading somewhere that the bombardment bonus remains even after Walls/Castles become obsolete.

Nah, its because the siege needs to bombard from 100% even cannons.
Bushface says his cannons do 12% reduction to bombardment, it just doesn't appear that way.

the popup says "You have reduced the defence to 38%" on the first shot, which is 50% (for Walls) minus 12% (bombardment);

What happens is the reduction is spread between walls and culture proportionally. In this case as the walls have 50%, culture at 20% the culture takes 2/5 of the 12% reduction giving 4.8% defense drop on culture, rounded up to the 5% which bushface sees

the city bar shows defence down to 15% instead of the 8% I expected.

If walls 50% defense was being taken into account, then it would have been reduced by 6% and said 6% .
You can check this yourself in WB, set up a few cities with a walls and castle, give them different values of culture defense, hit it with the same siege weapons and compare . You can always see the full damage done by selecting a pregunpowder unit to view the 12% (for cannon) reducition.

I don't know why this method was used by Firaxis, its weird at best. At worst hurts muskets significantly as the ignore walls bonus is largely removed by the need for the same amount of siege bombardment.

 

[mechaerik]

I like State Property.

 

[Zubbus]

And "just the free tech" is like umm, a lot
I play on prince/noble and if I don't win this I know I'm in serious trouble

 

[Crusher1]

On Emperor I can pretty much Guarantee Communism while on Immortal it's either Steel or Chemistry.

 

[patkingpin]

Noob question follow up. When I hit the free tech, everything says zero turns and I can't "see the big picture", is there a way at that point to tell what is the most expensive tech so I can guarantee I get that one for free? I am assuming I should have just been proactive and looked ahead of time, but I am usually so distracted I forget to do that.

 

[6K Man]

Noob question follow up. When I hit the free tech, everything says zero turns and I can't "see the big picture", is there a way at that point to tell what is the most expensive tech so I can guarantee I get that one for free? I am assuming I should have just been proactive and looked ahead of time, but I am usually so distracted I forget to do that.

I think you can still check the tech table for the actual beaker counts, or mouseover the tech choices, when making the decision.

(OK, I frankly don't remember how one does it, but I know I am always able to select the highest beaker count tech when I win the Lib race. Hopefully someone else can provide specifics)

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Yeah mouseover tells you the cost of each tech.

 

[mechaerik]

And how many turns is left. Does suck that you can't look at the big picture though (same with Oracle.)