Not a Beginner, bored with the game...

[screwtype]

My 3 friends and I all got Civ4 the day it came out (pre-ordered). We've all played it to death since, and my friends and I had the same opinion: Something is just not "right" with the game, and we are getting board.

Well, I knew EXACTLY what the problem was, and when I told my friends, they said "Yes! Tha'ts it!"

Civ4 is just like spending untold hours baking, cutting, frosting, and decorating a wedding cake, and finding out the couple is already on their honeymoon. Specifically, the further you go on in the game, the less time you have to enjoy or even use anything you accomplish or build. Near the end of the game, Techs fly by every 2-3 turns (shrug your shoulders), and units you build are obsoulete by the time they are fortified or moved to a useful location. Even if you do decide to take the plundge, and build modern units to use againt other civs, you feel like a total fool for not taking the easier and quicker routes to victory.

In the first 3 civs, you were always wondering throughout the entire end-game "can I stop them from building that spaceship in time"; "will I get nukes before they can send leagions of tanks accross my border"; can I steal enough technology to stop my more advanced neighbor from overrunning me with high tech units". When you did finally research and build those great high tech units, it was SOOOO satisfying crushing that neighbor who had been *****-slapping you the entire game.

In every single Civ4 game we've played, we never get to use musketmen, or planes, or subs, or nukes, or explorers; or rarely even Mech Infintry, there's just NO TIME. Even if you build the units, by the time you get them to your neighbors, they've built half their spaceship and have higher tech units than you do. Using all that high tech army you spent the entire 80% of the game researching to strategically pick your oppoents to pieces is no longer possible.

It's like riding your bike 100 miles to disneyland, and getting there just 30 minutes before it closes; there's just no time to really enjoy all your work and accomplishments. And Epic speed only makes the first 2/3rd of the game an anguishing long mess, while the last 3rd is only somewhat less hecktic.

How many times have you guys built a unit in Civ4, ANY unit, and thought "why bother" or "just wait a couple turns to the next tech/unit is researched" or "The game will be over before I get to use this unit". Lots? THAT'S the problem; There's no time to enjoy the fruits of your labors, and no payoff even if you do. . .

Excellent post. As I said before, this is the most glaring immediate problem in the game that needs to be fixed. There's just no play balance. It's like they rushed it out the door without ever playtesting it.

 

[screwtype]

What a mentality : "I pay, so I'm owed everything."

The era of the Consumer King : spending dollars gives him right & might.

It is so easy to edit those XML text-files to suit your needs : so easy.

Oh nonsense. I paid, so I'm owed a GAME. Not half of one.

And it is not "so easy" to edit the XML files. First of all I have to go and find an XML editor somewhere. Then I have to figure out what all the different fields in those files actually do. Then I have to start tinkering around and playtesting the results to see how they affect play balance.

This is a process that can take days or weeks of intensive effort. I have neither the time or inclination to do this. As I've said, when the SDK comes out, maybe then I might start tinkering around.

And if it was "so easy" to balance the game properly, then the obvious question to ask is - how come Firaxis didn't do it?

 

[EdCase]

You have an XML editor...its called notepad.

XML is also easy to read and adjust. As for what the fields mean . Read the forums or consult the wiki.
Incidentally, just because the game does not suit your perception of how it should be, does not make it incomplete. It simply makes it different, at least you have the opportunity and tools to make it the game you want it to be.

 

[screwtype]

You have an XML editor...its called notepad.

XML is also easy to read and adjust. As for what the fields mean . Read the forums or consult the wiki.
Incidentally, just because the game does not suit your perception of how it should be, does not make it incomplete. It simply makes it different, at least you have the opportunity and tools to make it the game you want it to be.

Thanks, but I've already taken a look through the xml files, and concluded that I would need to do a substantial amount of study and experimentation to do what needs to be done. Work that I am not willing to put into a game I'm not that keen on in the first place.

Like I said, when the SDK comes out, I might take another look at modding it. But quite frankly, I doubt it. Contrary to the opinion of some amateurs, modding is not actually an easy process at all. Ask some of these modders how much time they spend on their mods. It isn't just a few minutes, I can assure you.

 

[King Flevance]

Actually, I too find the late game boring. 39 Turns left!! pfft. What I find most amusing is, in games I am losing I have more fun in the last turns than if I am winning. (Or even if it is a close neck-and-neck race) Cause when I am gonna lose, I can do whatever I want I am gonna lose anyways. I usually attack a friend who isnt expecting it or something. I try to eradicate them in 20 turns or something.
One thing that kills it for me is the AI's incompatability to want a friend mixed with the UN knocking away all kinds of Civic options. Everyone gets in this 'tense stalemate' for the last 100 turns. Whereas for the previous time in the game there are ups and downs with relations, in the end everyone is trying to just 'last' to the end in their own way.

I have seen the AI go crazy and attack me towards the end alot. But really, all they do is declare war, dump a ship on your shore, you kill their guys, then just remain at war with no one really doing anything. It really depends on the factors of the game, but every game once I see the turn counter show up I get bored.
My reason I get bored I think is because the AI usually hides itself in its scities with those insane stacks due to hella cheap upgrades and wont come out. I have a -X for trading with their worst enemies yet they arent at war with their 'worst enemies'. I wish I could mod AI's likelyness to go to war.

 

[akots]

What are these bugs and undocumented features? Seriously, I want to know, because I haven't encountered them, and I have played at least as much MP as I have single player.

As an aside, how the hell do you play a PBEM game? Aren't the first 4000 years of the game HORRIBLY boring (they sure are in hotseat!)? And how do you keep the other players from cheating?

Consider this, regarding bugs. There were very many very qualified beta-testers testing the beta-version of Civ4. Consider now how many bugs have not been noticed by these very qualified folks. There are already a few exploits and somewhat counterintuitive features in Civ4 which certainly can make your multiplayer experience very unpleasant often times if abused severely.

Regarding PBEM, actually, I'd suggest you take a look at Civ3 PBEM forum here at CFC or the one at civ3duelzone. It is pretty well organized, most games are played stricktly by the rules and most of the players specifically try to avoid exploits and cheats which are very abundant in the PBEM games of Civ3. Consider also that Civ3 is way longer being played and most of the game mechanics is pretty well uncovered.

Now, playing an epic PBEM game in Civ4 is a bit of a problem with multihuman games which tend to be rather fragile and easy to die because not much happens during the first 100 or probably even more turns. However, 1x1 games should be OK because even in Civ3 they usually last well up to 300 turns easily on a continents map with strong players.

There is also a problem of cheating. The problem had been actually solved more or less in Civ3 believe it or not. You migth want to take a closer look at the rules in the Civ3 PBEM forum and endless discussion of these subject at civ3duelzone.

However, it took considerable effort and time from many members of the community working together. Now, I'm not naming anything or placing labels here but I'd try to avoid some communities who disregard these areas of the game just closing their eyes into obvious problems.

 

[akots]

Excellent post. As I said before, this is the most glaring immediate problem in the game that needs to be fixed. There's just no play balance. It's like they rushed it out the door without ever playtesting it.

Now, I don't want to sound rude or offensive here. However, if you specifically do not understand the balance of the game and you speficially are not able to follow the pace of the game, this is your specific problem and you are certainly free to be bored with the game just same as you can be bored with reading a scientific book chapter on archaelogy. Some find it amusing, others prefer to watch "Walker Texas Ranger". (No offense to Walker, I actually liked this show a lot). It is nice you decided to share it with the audience but the purpose of this thread seems to uncover the reasons why some people who are not beginners are bored with the game.

It also seems a bit strange how people have their goal to post in every thread in the forum without actually reading any of the preceding posts and trying to think about it and absorb whatever useful information there is just do not really caring what they post and how they post.

I'm not a moderator but please, stop clogging this very useful and interesting thread with spam. Go read the the first 5 pages of it before posting, stop spamming please and repeating same things over and over again.

It is specifically called "not for a beginner" clearly saying in the title.

 

[screwtype]

Now, I don't want to sound rude or offensive here.

No kidding? Because you come across as pretty rude and offensive to me.

However, if you specifically do not understand the balance of the game and you speficially are not able to follow the pace of the game, this is your specific problem

Except that half a dozen other posters on this thread have made reference to the same specific problem.

So my concern is obviously not specific to me, at all. But it does seem to be a specific problem of yours that you were incapable of comprehending that.

It is nice you decided to share it with the audience but the purpose of this thread seems to uncover the reasons why some people who are not beginners are bored with the game.

Actually, the original post didn't say anything about only people "who are not beginners" posting their views. It simply solicited the views of "others".

It also seems a bit strange how people have their goal to post in every thread in the forum without actually reading any of the preceding posts and trying to think about it and absorb whatever useful information there is just do not really caring what they post and how they post.

That's kind of amusing, seeing as how you misread the OP and then failed you notice that half a dozen other posters on this thread support my views. Seems like you're the one with the comprehension problem. Not that I want to sound "rude or offensive", mind.

And as for posting "on every thread on the forum", I suggest you go back through the last several pages of this folder and find out just how many I've contributed to apart from this one. But to save you the trouble, I can tell you right away - none of them.

I'm not a moderator but please, stop clogging this very useful and interesting thread with spam. Go read the the first 5 pages of it before posting, stop spamming please and repeating same things over and over again.

So - let me get this straight - you think I should stop spamming and repeating the same things over and over? And not only that, but I should stop clogging this very useful and interesting thread with spam?

Hmmm, you may have a point...

It is specifically called "not for a beginner" clearly saying in the title.

Away with you, acolytes and journeymen! Only those who share a similar degree of expertise may presume to share a thread with the great akots!

Oh, and BTW, how exactly do you know I'm a "beginner"? In addition to your other talents, are you a mind reader as well? Or is this just another example of your fatuous, ill-mannered snobbery?

 

[lonestar007]

I think by oversimplyfying the game they have indeed lost a great deal of the "fun" factor. My simple example is the settler and worker creation. Instead of costing your cities population, your city does not grow. Early settlers can easily take 20-25+ turns to build. So my city basically does nothing for 20-25+turns. In civ3 I was planning, adjusting, trying to plan for my growth to match my production. I was never great at settler factories, but I could get my city close. Now.....no need to bother. Click on the best tiles and let it run. This entire aspect of the early game is almost completely gone.
And this is just one example. In civ 4 I no longer look much at growth vs. unhappiness. I probably should, but i can beat the game on Noble without really dealing with it. Never could do this on civ 3. Most of my turns are moving a few units and hitting the enter key. I somtimes dabble in religion, but it's mostly useless. Some diplomacy, but again, not much there. Really, it's a good set-up, and it will improve, but now there just does not seem to be as much to do as civ 3.

 

[Rik Meleet]

Moderator Action: screwtype: don't get personal.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Meatbuster]

You can beat the game on Noble without dealing with growth vs unhappiness? On Noble yes. Any higher than that and you might need to use the whip.

Isn't slavery exciting in itself, doesn't it make you go "OH CRAP IF I DIDN'T WHIP THEN THERE WOULD SOME MORE IN 2 TURNS BUT THEN AGAIN IF I DO IT THERE WILL BE MORE FOR A COUPLE OF TURNS AND I WILL LOSE 3 POPULATION AND A LOT OF HAMMERS AND AND AND..."

Ok, that's overexaggerating a bit; what I'm saying is (try to) use your imagination and it will cease to become boring. If you're that bored, you can always go into storytelling (since you're not microing as much you are able to write a turnlog or epic narrative) or you can simply increase the difficulty level.

 

[R3dKnight]

i'm just gonna keep hammering that particular 'bad pacing' nail over n over till the wooden support breaks. cause i think i'm almost done with Civ 4 atm. lol

 

[Pratputajao]

I don't think SM is much "in the Civ model" at all. But I agree it's a lot more fun to play than Civ4. It's more colourful, more intuitive and it has more personality. There are some great monsters in AOW, like the Glutton who swallows enemies whole!

Well I meant that AOW is in the Civ model in that it follows patterns common to Civ-- City Building, Unit Building, Researching ( spells and skills in this case)
4 X gameplay, etc. I put it in the fine company of MoM, MoO, and SMAC. I see the game as a combination of Heroes of M & M and Civ, though Closer to civ in total gameplay. Though it does have infuences from HOM&M- Heroes, High fantasy concepts, VERY colourful, etc.
It is just a blast to play... It is a very good stand in until (if?) there is a MoM 2 and/or HOM&M 5 ( though looking at the screen shots of the latter I have my doubt whether my machine will be able to play it). And yep, more personality... at least for me personally. Hope that changes over time.

Thanks to everyone who gave their ideas. I do think this help highlight some of issues with the game. On of the reasons mentioned for the game seeming to become boring was the technical issues. Well going back to it last night this really proves to be a factor with me. At the point of having to restart the game for the 2nd time becouse diplomacy ( figurehead animations slows my game to a crawl) I just took the disk out and stopped playing. Is there ANY word on a new patch?

 

[taylor]

hello everyone, this is my first post. And it's happening 'cause after one month i found myself roaming through this forum more than playing (exactly what happened to other people here).

When i've read the first message of this thread i admit i finally stopped feeling alone. Now, i've studied the guides for people who hates civ4 and followed all the suggestions to enjoy a better experience of the game. I had to unlearn what i've learned before for civ, civ2 and civ3 and, eventually, i could play and have fun from the game. After one month, anyway, i have to say i'm bored. It's one week i'm trying to think why. Civ4 seems actually the best of the serie, the implementations are really good, the graphic, all in all, is nice (i haven't any performance problem), and i agree with almost everything written by the most enthusiastic people in this forum. But i'm bored.

I think i found at least one reason in the lack of role-playing. While in the other titles you could use the mechanics of the game to play in your own personal style, in civ4 the style is a servant of the mechanics. For example:

1) In the later centuries of civ3 (and more of civ2) you could, at least, manage your empire giving to it your personal touch, in civ4 you can only watch things going on alone.

2) In civ3 you were obliged to role-play the governements with their advantages and limits, in civ4 you can correct the lackings of democracy or communism or whatever with the civic system (very nice idea indeed but unrealistic in the way it is).

3) Surely the AI is smarter and could be funny to be suddenly attacked or to find a new friend but i have the impression the AI leaders sometimes are bored like us (they attack 'cause they have too many units or they don't attack at all, they commerce when it seems there's no need to commerce at all, etc.).

4) Religions are cool but watching buddhists with aggressive traits don't help the enjoyment. Buddhism is not even really a religion, better say it's a philosophy. You can't role-play any religion.

5) The tech tree is a kind of open tree. Ok, good idea. But the choices are quite obliged (more than in the old one, i would say). They depend on the territory and on your leader's traits. Not to mention that some technologies do depend from others (i don't have the technology tree in front of me but i noted, on my point of view, some errors).

6) Last but not least, i miss (as someone said before) all that small things that in the other civs used to give me the sensation of the long run of history (i.e. the button to throw the spaceship in the deep black of the sky).

My opinion about the missing of magic in this game is, in conclusion, this one: in civ4 i don't feel part of the history. It's a good game, but it's only a game. Civ2 or civ3, with all their faults, gave to me the gift of history and evolution, they made me a part of history and showed to me the slow walk of the centuries from the dawn on the earth to the dawn on alpha centauri.

i'm sorry for such a long post

thank you very much for the attentions. Civfanatics is a great place.

taylor

 

[Warhound]

I have to agree with some of the previous posts the Modern Era needs reworking. Those last 100 turns are just pure torture. I love the game but am finding myself a bit bored. I am trying different game styles to help give me a fresher newer perspective.

 

[jaydh]

Thanks, but I've already taken a look through the xml files, and concluded that I would need to do a substantial amount of study and experimentation to do what needs to be done. Work that I am not willing to put into a game I'm not that keen on in the first place.

Like I said, when the SDK comes out, I might take another look at modding it. But quite frankly, I doubt it. Contrary to the opinion of some amateurs, modding is not actually an easy process at all. Ask some of these modders how much time they spend on their mods. It isn't just a few minutes, I can assure you.

it looks like you can modify how long technologies take by modding the

..\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Assets\XML\Technologies\CIV4TechInfos.xml

Now i am guessing here, but within the file there is a parameter <iCost>, and that seems to be the value determining how long a technology takes to research. i'm sure, proper tweaking of these numbers could fix the problem.

 

[Rhianni]

Custom Game: uncheck victory by turns.

You only really need to mod 1 number. the number that controls the tech gains. Take the epic technology number and put it in the regular game speed.

Not perfect but it will fix a lot of the problems described. I suppose its everyones choice if they want to make changes on their own or shelve a game they paid for and complain that someone else didnt fix it.

 

[Armorydave]

I like the game but not with the same zeal as prior additions. The end game takes less time but is also less interesting IMO. One thing that made it much better was turning off space entirely. After playing about 10 Monarch games to conclusion and having every one end in a Space victory (well before the year 2000 I might add) was rather boring. At some point I will probably learn to mod the game and add about 50% to all the tech costs. I think doing that while leaving all other things equal might make it possible to turn space back on and feel that the game is properly paced. Otherwise the game seems great to me. Religion and modifications to civics were huge upgrades to the game. I considered trying epic speed but am very happy with all other aspects besides the pacing of tech advancement so figured it would make the game tedious without really improving the balance.

 

[GamesMan]

Well, I just used that wonderful "Tech Cost Editor" talked about 2 pages back, and then played a game. WOW, what a difference. I built Musketmen (and used them a lot), and had time to use plenty of flying and sea units too. I was even actually able to build and USE the late game high-tech units before the next more powerful tech units became available (2-4 turns later) and make them obsoulete. Even the Internet wonder was useful this time. The pacing of the second half of the game was DEFINATELY the monkey wrench in this game, and thanks to the above mod program, I've removed that Wrench. The boring factor has disapeared for me now, and my friends too, as NOW, each time you work to aquire a new tech, you have enough time to use and enjoy it.

As just one example, when a couple of us got Machine Guns, we had plenty of time to build and fortiy them in key cities. The other AIs and friends, NOT getting infantry just 3 turns later (like in all previous games) actually had to wait a while and deal with our defencive tech advange. FINALLY, a sence of acomplishment for our research stratagies!

P.S. I used 1.6 for Modern; 1.4 for Industrial; and 1.2 for Renisaunce; and 1.1 for Medievil. That combo seemed to work perfect (for the one game we played).

P.S.#2 They need a fourth setting: Fast, Normal, Epic, and "Time to actually use your units"

 

[Cdrommel]

I have now beat the game at least 10 tens, three or at least on prince. I have yet to build any sort of airplane. I just finished a Prince game. Diplomatic Victory, and the next turn I would have won a space victory. I had no coal, no oil. That means No planes, no tanks, no fun big weapons. The game seems to paced wrong. I used to love modern age fights. Bombing the hell out of people with airplanes, crushing them with tanks and infantry. None of that is needed any more. I can research so much faster than I can the units out that by the time I can engage in a battle. I could have either won the game or someone else would have.

I played CIV to death and I too am groing bored with this game. I think it have to do with the pacing. You can progress through the tech try far faster than you get the stuff out.

Thats the exact same reason I'm bored with the game.