Not a story or a tale, just an experiment.

[testdummy653]

So hear is the deal:

To understand what I'm doing or trying to prove read this;
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=397203.
(Read all of thread to get the opposing views, and my counter points).
I'm gonna go step by step and try to analyze the process of my CiV game with my own theory.

I will win or try to win (Space Victory), the first time, with no captured cities of other Civs. (if i deem it prudent i will sack city States, but i will avoid this).

I will play England on a standard (8 civs) Archipelago Map, on Immortal difficultly. This will give the AI a significant edge in almost everything, but also slow down combat enough so that i can watch and determine who is trying to win by conquest and such. I will not play with Mods. (i should use the reveal map mod, but i won't because, i want to get some points for sinking ships, and winning on immortal achievement).

Even though I'm planning on winning the first attempt through the game, I'm planning on determining on what the AI's Civ initial victory condition. The second and third attempts will be loaded from a certain year, where an event occurs. For example if one of the Civs declare wars in the first playthrough, i will attempt to defend the the other CiV. (basically i will not allow the Conquest AI to win, and attempt to limit its infulences, in my theory this should allow other wins for the AI).

I highly doubt i can effectively remove the Conquest AI influences completely, and even with that i still believe it will be hard for the computer to win a Diplo or Cultural.


I will attempt to fill you in on my details as i play the game.

As of Turn 67
I have meet three of my neighbors and my guess at their victory AIs. (notice space AI will be hard to tell). Also these guess will change as more data has come

Aztecs - (Conquest) - I have determined this from the fact that they have three triremes, already and have a decent size army so far. (This may change, i will be able to know more from DoWs)
Arabia - to early to call.
Ottoman - (Cultural) - So far only one city, and the island could have one or two more cities.

This game, I have one of the crappiest starting location ever, there are only two good spot for cities, and the rest of my island is desert. I have two surrounding islands with good resources though and I found two marentine states, and one military.

 

[testdummy653]

Let me do a break down: This is till game turn 216
PoS: Pact of Secrecy
DoW: Declaration of War
PoW: Pact of War
(Country it was offered against) (turn year)

This is what i was offered
Ottomans: PoS (Aztecs) (74), PoS (Aztecs) (134), PoS (Aztecs) (194),
Aztec: PoS (Ottoman) (69), PoS (Ottoman) (128), War with Hanoi (184-189), DoW (Ottoman) (189), PoS (Arabia) (190).
Arabia: None
Japan: War on CapeTown(124-127), PoS (Iroquois) (176)
Greece: Threat (21), Threat (116), Threat(151), Threat (186), PoS Iroquois(215)
Iroquois: PoW (Japan) (103),PoS (Japan) (112), PoW (Japan) (134), PoW (Japan) (165), DoW (Japan) (183), DoW (France) (193-196-197)
France: War with Iroquois before discovery. Discovered (186) Capital Destroyed (196), Conquered (197)

Research Agreements (with me or others)
Ottomans : 4
Aztecs: 4
Arabia: 6
Japan: 2
Iroquois: 4

Where i think there victory conditions are
Iroquois: (Time) This is my runaway AI, he is conquesting like a champ, he researching, and he allied with half of the CS. He number one on all demographics, but since he so spread out i think the AI is trying to get a huge score and win on a time victory. He also has a lot culture, for a big empire.
Aztecs: (Conquest) Big military, but not as good as Iroquois, War with ottomans, is slow and Aztecs only got one city.
Arabia: (Culture) They only have four cities in this game, with plenty room to expand. They are building wonders like a champ and seem to be going for culture.
Japan: (Unsure) Maybe space?
Greece: (Unsure)
France: (Dead)
Ottoman: (Unsure) I had them at culture because i saw only one city, but they expanded fast. I think this is another space victory.

General thoughts so far:
I'm doing well, and having a happiness surplus, slow expansion, a mid score, and number two on the demographics in everything important.

A trend i see is the Conquest AI take out the nearby neighbors first (france was on the same island as Iroquois), then focus on nearby rivals,(japan is a stone throw from Iroquois).

Arabia has a lot of research agreements, making it a good techer, and it fits the cultural victory conditions, of low cities a lot of wonders/

Greece is feeling the heat(also very near to the Iroquois), or is not like Iroquois wars, and has become friendlier to me, offering a PoS. (This could be an example of the Conquest AI effects on the other AI's wins chance).

I do not know what to think of the AI attempt to conquer city-states.... I will record them and think about it, and let you guys know.

 

[V. Soma]

I will follow this test-play

BTW it seems that Patch 2 will change lots of things, so this is only to report for sg. that will be a past thing,
but anyways, still fun

 

[testdummy653]

I will follow this test-play

BTW it seems that Patch 2 will change lots of things, so this is only to report for sg. that will be a past thing,
but anyways, still fun

Yeah, I'm actually kinda of scared, about the combat changes, I may have to actually plan my wars better...

Okay, back to my test play...

There are some things i should reveal about my CiV game. First, I do not use random personalities. So when I see a certain civilization, I can basically tell you how they will play the game somewhat.
For example the Iroquois is my lex luther, in the last 20 games, they are in 17 of them. They are always the runaway AI, conquesting and killing off others. In 17 of those games i engaged the Iroquois in battle 15 times. (successfully except for the one city challenge level )

Almost every time i play with the Ottomans they are usually on my island, thankful in this case they are not. (They usually declare war on me bwt 63 - 80).

In this test play, i have some of the most aggressive AI's that i usually play with: Aztecs, Greece, Iroquois, Ottoman. The french are usually aggressive, but since they are so close to Iroquois, they really had no chance this game.

Civs i want to see in this game, was Egypt, India, Rome(he's aggressive, but he not as aggressive as Iroquois), Persia(He goes for space victory), America.

So I kinda of deciding if i want to play this game again or try to play this another game, where the other Civs are not as random.

On another note: I will not go back and edit my old posts (unless there is something so badly misspelled). I will do a new post, every time to show how my thoughts progress, and how wrong i was in the previous post.

 

[testdummy653]

I won!! A diplomatic victory.....

Okay i was suppose to win by Space, but i decided that in Iroquois are becoming to powerful, and may beat me to my first win on Immortal....

Anywho this is up to the turn 311, i will reload this game tomorrow from this date and i will not try to win from this point on.

PoS: Pact of Secrecy
DoW: Declaration of War
PoW: Pact of War
(Country it was offered against) (turn year)

Arabia - PoS (Iroquois) (276), PoS (Greece) (292)
Aztec - PoS (Arabia)(250), PoW(Greece)(252), PoW Greece (283), PoW (Greece)(310)
Ottomans - threat (260) (Land threat)
Greece - War on ME (235-242), PoS (Aztec) (283)
Iroquois - Capture Osaka (Japan City (274)
Japan - PoS (Iroquois) (256), Threat (CityState) (294)
France - Destoryed

Total Research Agreements (with me or others)
Ottomans : 4
Aztecs: 8
Arabia: 10
Japan: 4
Iroquois: 5
Greece: 1


Iroquois: (Time) This is my runaway AI, he is conquesting like a champ, he researching, and he allied with half of the CS. He number one on all demographics, but since he so spread out i think the AI is trying to get a huge score and win on a time victory. He also has a lot culture, for a big empire.
Aztecs: (Conquest) Big military, but not as good as Iroquois, War with ottomans, is slow and Aztecs only got one city.
Arabia: (Culture) They only have five cities in this game, with plenty room to expand. They have decent amount of social policies but they are stupid, they pick rationalism over piety. Which make them more consistent with space race, but they are too small to win it.
Japan: (Unsure) Maybe space, maybe conquest. They actually have a chance of damaging the Iroquois if they had the technology
Greece: (Unsure) Had a war with me, but i was nice and only took out a few units before they sued for peace.
France: (Dead)
Ottoman: (Unsure) I had them at culture because i saw only one city, but they expanded fast. I think this is another space victory. Their war with the Aztec has slowed down there growth.


So what can i tell you,
Warmongers will even get the peaceful Arabia to ask for PoS against them.. So those who play for conquest remember that.

The Aztecs, are defiantly Conquest in their demands, and they know they are not powerful enough to win the game by them self, which may explain their constant request for help. The ottomans are too weak to put up a fight, but Aztecs, limited by water really can't conquer them.



My Plans:

I'm planning to play from 309 and not win by diplomatic... I built the UN so Iroquois would not win by diplomatic, (they have 6 CS, and could of won diplo if i had not stole a few from them). The reason that i did that was because the Iroquois were not going for that victory type. (they were in the future age before i was in the modern, plenty of time to beat me to the UN or the Apollo Program.)

Now i will play dumb, and see if anyone can win other than Iroquois, if not.. the next game (from turn 309) i will take an active assault on Iroquois, and force them back and destroy their military, and make them a non- threat.

If i find that unsatisfactory, i will replay and archipelago map, and pick a few civs, that i think should have different victory conditions than conquest.

 

[bestrfcplayer]

Great job testdummy! Can't wait for another one of your test plays! Can you post some pics for us to see?

 

[testdummy653]

Great job testdummy! Can't wait for another one of your test plays! Can you post some pics for us to see?

It's extremely complicated, but at the moment i can't give you an screenshots....

I'm planning to play a quick playthrough tomorrow, for an hour (sorry busy weekend)

 

[testdummy653]

I won the game earlier, and now i have to sit and hit next turn........, I'm building a military just in case someone wants to challenge me (please someone challenge me i'm bored watching Iroquois conquer Japan)

To turn 400
PoS: Pact of Secrecy
DoW: Declaration of War
PoW: Pact of War
(Country it was offered against) (turn year)

Arabia - PoS (Iroquois) (347), Built the Apollo Program (397)
Aztec -, PoW(Greece)(314), PoS Greece (380)
Ottomans -
Greece - PoS (Iroquois)(375)
Iroquois - Capture Osaka (Japan City (274) Captured Captial(330), Captured City(333), Captured City (334), Conquered Japan(361) War started:183 - 361
Japan - (Destroyed)(361)
France - Destoryed

Total Research Agreements (with me or others)
Ottomans : 4
Aztecs: 9
Arabia: 11
Japan: 4
Iroquois: 5
Greece: 1


Iroquois: (Time) This is my runaway AI, he is conquesting like a champ, he researching, and he allied with half of the CS. He number one on all demographics, but since he so spread out i think the AI is trying to get a huge score and win on a time victory. He also has a lot culture, for a big empire. Recently Conquered Japan, worried on who he will come for next.
Aztecs: (Conquest) The war with Ottomans is at a stand-still, even though the Aztecs are ahead in tech, they can't bring their superior force to destroy the Ottomans
Arabia: (Space) They only have five cities in this game, with plenty room to expand. They have decent amount of social policies but they are stupid, they pick rationalism over piety. Which make them more consistent with space race, but they are too small to win it. (haha, and it turns out that they were going for the space victory)
Japan: (Dead)
Greece: (Conquest) Had a war with me, but i was nice and only took out a few units before they sued for peace. I don't know what they are, in Ai victory terms, but i know that they lost.
France: (Dead)
Ottoman: (Unsure) I had them at culture because i saw only one city, but they expanded fast. I think this is another space victory. Their war with the Aztec has slowed down there growth. They are the worst civ in the game, no growth no tech, whatever they are going is no longer in grasp.

Okay these screenshot are from my phone... don't complain it's complicated why these are not computer screen shots.

Photo 1: Is my start location.

Photo 2: is the aztec and greece territory dispute(aka stupid placement on the island by the two AI's, also the reason of so many PoWs and PoS bwt the two).

Photo 3: is Arabia and Ottoman sharing a border. (surprisingly neither are aggressive at each other, of course Ottomans have been in a long war with Aztecs so weaken their position, and they are currently last in the game score wise)

Photo 4: Is Arabia and their five cities.

Photo 5: RunAway Iroquois (other wise known as time AI)

Photo 6: Is of Frances location, and how unluckily they were to spawn next to the Iroquois.

Photo 7: World Map.

Photo 8 : Japan getting conquered and the bottleneck that Japan was using to combat the extremely powerful Iroquois

Photo 9: Demographic I'm number two, Iroquois number 1, ottoman and japan are last in everything

Photo 10: The big deal... I'll talk about this later....


Things I noticed:

The more japan started to lose in the battle against Iroquois, the more concerned other nations seem to get about the Iroquois. There are two things that indicated this, first i noticed, that peaceful Arabia , asked for PoS against Iroquois, this is self explanatory.(I explained it in the posts above) The second thing i noticed when i started to trade resources is that other Civs started to be negative in gold per a turn, which means they are building an army (that or they built every single building in the game(not possible with the bonuses they received to go negative). This is why photo number ten starts to be a big deal. (Arabia even though small in size, UA gives it much more gold making this army size possible).

Those on the losing side of a war, are less likely to have RAs because they either don't have resources(gold), or they run out options to do RAs with. This also could be that the other civs recognize that the war is not in that losing civs favor, and decide the investment in a 30 turn RA would be wasteful(highly unlikely, but a theory).

Things I missed and now make sense,

Arabia was using RAs and rationalism tree for a space victory... This makes way more sense.

General Talk on the Runaway AI and how it effect other Civs:

The runaway AI effects trade, in that it makes other nations build up their armies in anticipation, causing lack of gold to trade for resources, and buying RA's, this in turn increase the runaway AI power, because they usually don't run RAs as much, teching on their own science.

There is also the cost of having to build an army, instead creating important buildings.

See thread posted in post 1 to see more on this AI tactics.

 

[Slowpoke]

BTW, this code, from the xmls about grand strategy, might help you figure out what's going on. Right now nobody knows what they mean, but you can sorta make out some obvious things, like the A.I. will switch to science if it has the appolo program, it has a higher chance to go conquest on "cramped"(crowded?) maps, etc Interestingly, it decided some strategies AFTER it does some things, like it is more likely to go conquest if it attacked a bunch of minor civs (city states)

Spoiler :

- <Row Name="AI_GRAND_STRATEGY_NUM_TURNS_STRATEGY_MUST_BE_ACTIVE">
<Value>0</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GS_RAND_ROLL">
<Value>50</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GRAND_STRATEGY_CURRENT_STRATEGY_WEIGHT">
<Value>50</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GRAND_STRATEGY_GUESS_NO_CLUE_WEIGHT">
<Value>40</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GRAND_STRATEGY_GUESS_POSITIVE_THRESHOLD">
<Value>120</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GRAND_STRATEGY_GUESS_LIKELY_THRESHOLD">
<Value>70</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GRAND_STRATEGY_OTHER_PLAYERS_GS_MULTIPLIER">
<Value>40</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GS_CONQUEST_NOBODY_MET_FIRST_TURN">
<Value>20</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GRAND_STRATEGY_CONQUEST_NOBODY_MET_WEIGHT">
<Value>-50</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GRAND_STRATEGY_CONQUEST_AT_WAR_WEIGHT">
<Value>10</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GS_CONQUEST_MILITARY_STRENGTH_FIRST_TURN">
<Value>60</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GRAND_STRATEGY_CONQUEST_POWER_RATIO_MULTIPLIER">
<Value>100</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GRAND_STRATEGY_CONQUEST_CRAMPED_WEIGHT">
<Value>20</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GRAND_STRATEGY_CONQUEST_WEIGHT_PER_MINOR_ATTACKED">
<Value>5</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GRAND_STRATEGY_CONQUEST_WEIGHT_PER_MINOR_CONQUERED">
<Value>10</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GRAND_STRATEGY_CONQUEST_WEIGHT_PER_MAJOR_ATTACKED">
<Value>10</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GRAND_STRATEGY_CONQUEST_WEIGHT_PER_MAJOR_CONQUERED">
<Value>15</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GS_CULTURE_RATIO_MULTIPLIER">
<Value>150</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GS_CULTURE_RATIO_EARLY_TURN_THRESHOLD">
<Value>50</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GS_CULTURE_RATIO_EARLY_DIVISOR">
<Value>2</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GS_CULTURE_MAX_CITIES">
<Value>4</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GRAND_STRATEGY_UN_EACH_MINOR_ATTACKED_WEIGHT">
<Value>-40</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GS_UN_SECURED_VOTE_MOD">
<Value>300</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GS_SS_HAS_APOLLO_PROGRAM">
<Value>150</Value>
</Row>
- <Row Name="AI_GS_SS_TECH_PROGRESS_MOD">
<Value>300</Value>

 

[testdummy653]

Slowpoke, thanks for the data file, i will take a look at it see if i can understand anything (doubtful).

"like it is more likely to go conquest if it attacked a bunch of minor civs (city states)"

Extremely helpful; That may be the reason, why the Aztec and Japan went to war with citystates, they were both going conquest.

The only thing i disagree(or unsure of) is that if they build the Apollo program, then they should be already on the Science victory condition, the grand strategy should just be reinforcing that condition.

No games till Fridays