Not just another drill thread

[MrPopov]

I am imagining setting drill I and combat I as mutually exclusive (obviously the aggressive trait and any other instances of combat I or drill I being given for free would need to be balanced). This change would create two distinct promotion trees. On one side you have the combat line, which would include things like march, amphibious, etc. On the other you have the drill line which is where I intend to put shock, cover, formation. Combined with beefing up their combat mods and the first strikes, you can create some great anti-melee, anti-mounted units which can't be combined with the combat tree to create uber heroes.

Below is a simple flow chart of what I mean. The purple promotions are an OR prereq, so Sentry I for example requires combat III OR drill III.

Blitz I am a bit unsure about. Right now I have it as Combat V OR Drill V (a new promotion which I think would be necessary) however I don't want it to be too easy to get. I think maybe making it require Drill V or (Combat V & Mobility I & Commando) that way hero units can't get it too easily. Also, I seperated cannabalize and headless since I thought cannabalize combined with lots of first strikes and a strong defense would be a bit too much.

Anyway I posted this idea in the main FFH forum's drill thread but since I am basing it off FF I thought I would put it in its own thread here. Also since the new FFH has the defensive strikes mechanic which I didn't want to be combined with this idea.

This is something I have been toying with for the last few weeks (before I read about defensive strikes) and I wanted to post it here to get some feedback.

 

[hbar]

One big possible problem I see is that Drill 4 is required for Guardsman, but assassins are immune to first strikes. Of course, I'm still not sure how the guardsman/marksman mechanic works in FF (although I'm sure I've read Xienwolf's description several times). Maybe have a similar promotion (Meatshield?) that, instead of negating marksman, acts like base FFH guardsman where the units always defends?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

guardsman in FF just counters marksman, it does not increase the chance to defend the stack

 

[hbar]

Yeah, but I've heard it said that Guardsman negates Marksman, and I don't know if that means the assassin will attack the unit with guardsman or attack the best defender in the stack. If the former is true then Drill 1-4 are useless as prereqs for an anti-assassin unit because of their FS immunity.

Also, I meant to say that 'Meatshield' should be available at combat 4 to allow some measure of assassin countering in the combat line (it can be hard to get pure drill promos and still survive against similar units).

Sorry for the semi-hijack. As far as the overall scheme goes, I think I really like the idea, but it might be really unbalanced and would need a lot of playtesting. (For which I'd gladly volunteer

 

[xienwolf]

Hrm... just because Guardsman/Marskman are set up as counter-abilities, I would advocate placing them on seperate branches.

Be kinda nice to see Subdue Animal/Beast available on Drill line since that is where Recon should naturally aim to go IMO.

All of the anti-unittype promotions are on Drill EXCEPT dragon slaying at the end. Slightly odd. I can understand making Demon/Undead allowed on both since they are so common, but I do like the distinction that Combat is always-strength, and drill is situational-strength.


Defensiev seems slightly more fitting for Combat, as it is an always-strength type of bonus. You don't have the Forest/Hills terrain bonuses in there, no pre-req on those ones? I'd slap them after drill I if they should have a prereq.


Since these kind of changes would make combat line a tad barren, I would think that a few new promotions specific for combat line would be appropriate. Things which offer an "always" perk mostly (and new capabilities, like commando/march/fear).


Don't forget that drill is also carrying defensive strikes from now on.


@hbar: In FF, Guardsman means that the Guardsman unit will be targetted by the assassin. In base FfH it means that the assassin's ability doesn't work at all, but the Guardsman likes to rush out there and defend against EVERYONE, so will do so for even the assassin.

 

[Tarquelne]

Interesting. I like the idea of needing to chose. And I guess the basic breakdown is specialized units - lots of Shock, say - vs. all-around units with some interesting special abilities?


I wondered about Headless. As far as the extra-nebulous "lore" goes it's position didn't make sense - not that anywhere in particular would - but I understand the balance concern. And, speaking of balance concerns, you may want to find a place for "Implacable." 2 FS + quick healing (50 friendly, 30 other). (I'd guess off Drill V, to avoid a Cannibalize+Fear+Implacable unit.)


I suggest making Subdue available for either line - make Recon units more free to chose what line to pursue.
That does leave the Combat line even more barren.... but there's so many new PromotionInfo tags that aren't seeing much use!

 

[Breez]

I love the idea of OR promotions. Choices are what makes thingsd interesting.

I don't know if this is the best way to go about it specifically.

For instance I CONSTANTLY get units with 300+ XP now. Doing the above suggested removes 15ish possible promotions from high level units. I feel I would have units flat out running out of things to get by leveling.

I think I would rather see A promo that starts a unit down an offensive or defensive Path.

(The following is an example with no thought, it is intended as a sample of an idea not a suggestion of the best way to do it.)

Offensive = Combat 1-5, Drill 1-3, City Attack 1-3, No Defensive, Blitz
- Add a promo that such as Lesser City Defender 1-3 +5%/level city defence
- Add a Reduce Strikes 1-3 Promo such as reduces each First and Defensive Strike chance to hit 5%/level (Current automatic hits would Start at 100% so level 3 would make them a 85% chance to hit)

Defensive = Combat 1-3, Drill 1-5, Defensive, City Defender 1-3
- Add a promo called Lesser Citty Attack 1-3 +5% City Attack
- Add a Improved Strikes 1-3 which increases First and Defensive Strikes chance to hit by 5%/level (Immunity to First Strikes would start at 0% so Level 3 would give 15% chance to hit even them of course an immune Unit with Redcued Strikes 3 would still be effectily immune)

Balanced = Combat 5, Drill 5, No City Attack, but Lesser City Attack 1-5, No City Defnder but Lesser City Defender 1-5.

Keep most Promos Like March, Sentry, etc open to all branches.

By having the lesser versions someone could simply use those for a unit that they have changed thier mind about. Thus reducing the effectiveness of such a change with out completly crippling such a change.


______________________________________________________________


The difference being retain a high number of possible promos allowing tailoring of units.

An intersting option (not sure it is a GOOD idea but interesting none the less) would be to allow Land units to Chose Offensive, Defensive, and Balanced in any City that has XXX Building, for instance the one a Great Commander can Build, just like Ships do in port. BUT Doing so immediatly wipes ALL promotions gained through XP and is a "spell" that takes X Gold and Y turns to cast, being instantanious would be too powerful. At the end you have a leveled unit with a bunch of promotions to pick and you can re-spec that unit.

 

[odalrick]

I think the Drill promotions look very weak. Especially considering how easy it is to completely negate First Strikes. How about Drill giving +5% strength as well.

As is, Drill units will have a hard time gaining experience, how about having Drill offset that some? Say + 20% experience for Drill and a maybe a new branch, Advanced Training that uses the new training system.

Another thing, any unitcombats that aren't covered by one of the counter promotions will makes Drill worthless. That is you can ignore the Drill line in favour of Combat but not vice versa.

If you want to do something different with protection against Marksman:

Introduce a new fairly easy promotion that that does nothing on its own. Instead Guardsman is auto acquired, but expires after combat.

 

[xienwolf]

If you did split the promotion branches like this, it could be a good move to use the "Stack Effect" aspect of promotions at the top of the promotion tree to have a continually selectable enhancement for the unit (maybe 1 extra first strike chance on drill and 5% strength boost on combat). Then you never run out of promotions, you just have a continual, boring, marginal one available.

 

[MrPopov]

Thank you for the feedback. I am going to work on this some more and take some of your suggestions and make a better chart. If someone knows how I can get the promotion icons into a .bmp or something easily that would be great

EDIT: I took the liberty to snag the promo icons through screenshot, crop, etc. and wanted to share

 

[MrPopov]

Ok here's the updated flowchart.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=197617&d=1229632015

I've moved guardsman to the combat side to seperate it from marksman as suggested. I've also moved defensive over. I didn't like the idea of woodsman and guerilla on the drill side as I think they should be open for either. I haven't decided if flanking, city attack, city garrison, and barrage should be incorporated anywhere or left alone yet.

Oh and I don't really like where Dragon Slaying is but forgot to look at it since it's a relatively rare promo to take anyway.

I haven't yet given seperate offense/defense promotion trees much thought yet because I want to get this idea fleshed out a bit more before I consider a seperate structure but I believe it could work well too.

If you have suggestions for new promotions that can be added let me know.

EDIT: Did some quick changes and re-uploaded
EDIT2: Hmm not sure what happened. I had a version uploaded with subdue animal and subdue bests on both sides but now it's reverted back and I am at work unable to access the new chart...

 

[xienwolf]

Cute signature, hadn't noticed it before


Nice move on the bonus heal rates for Combat line. Certainly appropriate. Perhaps also place Bounty Hunter over there? And I think a new promotion for the magical line ought to be placed on Drill, as well as a summon perk associated with Drill promotions. Then the mages have to decide between the two lines. In FF Twincast means you can cast two seperate spells, so it is a nice bonus for the Spell-slinger type, so I would advocate that the end of Drill line be a nice bonus for the Summoner type, maybe a bonus to duration of summons (possible in FF easily).

 

[RogueThunder]

Might I suggest making drill alternate between +2 first strike chances and +1 first strike? For some flavor.
The two are technically about equal.

That said. I very much like this idea.

I see myself with this often making disposable assault troops with Drill 1+the promotion for +40% against whatever it is I need to assault. (2 levels out the door isn't hard)

I would almost say tie Flanking/Mobility to drill. And City attack/garrison to combat. But that might be a bit overboard.

Having blitz be harder to get on the combat tree would make sense. As combined with march, it is vicous. Not that first strikes arnt also, but theyre also your primary bonus from that entire tree.


One problem I have with the neutral and enimey land heal promotions. Wont that result in EASILY faster healing in neutral/enimey teritory, than friendly? Im fairly certian Ive already seen this once or twice. And HATE it. Its. Ew.

Could we prehaps somehow make it so that friendly teritory heal rate is ALWAYS atleast equal to highest heal rate? >.>


That said. This is brillaince. The only trick will be balancing it out with defencive strikes.

 

[xienwolf]

Don't forget about Defensive Strikes. Unless the plan is to remove them from the drill line of course.

EDIT: Helps when I read your entire post, neh? ;p

 

[RogueThunder]

^.^ Aye. It does tend to.

 

[westamastaflash]

I'm not a fan of splitting these up at all. I mean, if your troops are well trained and disciplined (drill), why should they also not be allowed to gain combat prowess (combat) and the requisite shock, cover, etc... I *like* my super units, thank you very much. Its FUN!

 

[zup]

I second the previous poster. If you don't want super units, don't make them. I want them, let me have them.

As for healing, use body mana.

EDIT: There is one further issue I noticed. If you promote a unit cover II, it will still be as weak as ever against melee, who will defend against it if they do it better than archers. Sure it is likely to defend against archers, but that does not compensate. And I cannot picture many drill units getting all of shock II, cover II and formation II.

 

[xienwolf]

That's because Shock, Cover and Formation are meant to be taken for defense, or to use against an opponent who over-specialized his forces.

 

[westamastaflash]

Shock is the ultimate early-game killer. I think warriors ought to not have a combat type, to prevent shock from killing them too easily.

 

[Shakiko]

I really like the idea of changing the upgrade system to be abit more strategic.
Especially that idea to seperate the situational bonuses like shock from combat ist great !
Finally you actually have to make a choice , if you rather want a unit being strong against everyone or one being average against most stuff and shining against 1 type. At least I find the current system rather dull, as the rewards for just going for combat, then shock, then more combat and later on for drill are just too good to try something else.
Especially the fact that it will be harder to exp-farm some lair/barbarians , getting combat5 (and cover2 and/or shock2 on the way) and then just steamrolling your opponent with 2 of these units, sounds appealing to me.

@superunits:
People creating units with 300+ exp regularily will just take all promotions anyways, so I think it does not matter that much on that level - it's still easy to achieve if someone is dedicated to exp-farming.
And if someone really likes to have a unit with every promotion availbale, they can just open up the worldbuilder (or use mimics )

@shock:
You don't need another unitclass for warriors if shock isn't going to be ridiculously easy to get anymore. If players have to decide between 40% against everything (combat 2) or 1 first strike and say, 75% vs melee, but 0% against everything else now, it will actually be a choice which needs to be made - do you take the "easy path" where you can get exp against animals quite easily and are also quite strong against archers/recon/mounted units ... or do you go the abit harder way to level up your unit, but then get a huuuuge reward to punish your opponent for just building warriors ?
Right now, getting 20% against everything and even more bonus against melee (=warriors) is just too cheesy so theres no reason for not taking it.


This new approach would also actually make mixed choices a viable strategy: get 1-3 levels of combat to ease leveling up and then pick drill 1 and cover to get +135% vs those pesky archers your opponent is spamming ... so it wouldn't be a choice between "all combat" or "all drill" or "all withdrawal" anymore.


wow, I really dig this idea the more I think about it.....