Nothing Rhymes With Orange - a Deity-Dutch post-game wrap-up with suggestions

[Strigvir]

Honestly, considering you owned all the CS in the game (which probably isn't intended)

Late-game AI seems to under-perform in diplomat units production. I tend to ally all possible city-states by the atomic/information era even with zero CS-related investments, outside of buildings and national wonders.

 

[Funak]

Late-game AI seems to under-perform in diplomat units production. I tend to ally all possible city-states by the atomic/information era even with zero CS-related investments, outside of buildings and national wonders.

I find myself in similar situations. Not in every game, but in quite a few ones.

One thing I do find odd, at first the replies expressed "800 culture UA? OP!" "Zomg!" "sounds broken". Then when I found where it was coming from, and G confirmed it, everyone switched to "not that OP" "good, not great" "meh". What gives?

I was just saying that straight up number-reductions would be stupid. I even gave a suggestion.

 

[jinxed75]

Might also add some comments about various aspects of the game

- As mentioned before, the CS-Diplo system needs work. Diplomacy units are so utterly overpowered, that all other means to get influence become irrelevant. Why bother going Arsenal of Democracy and gifting units, when a single Ambassador gives me 90 Inf alone? Why sending Cargo Ships using nerfed Treaty Organization? Council enactments like Cold War make it even less attractive. Instead just Ambassador-bomb the CS, they are cheap to build, and so fast, that running into Paper supply issues never becomes a problem.
I'd suggest to either limit the ability to send Diplos to CSs to like one every 30 turns or so, or to make them weaker, or to make other Influence options more attractive. I also don't understand why gold bribes have been turned off. Swinging the cash hammer should still be an option, imo.

- AI behaviour seems odd at times, especially during wars. War Score doesn't seem to influence their decision making at all. I can be >70 for ages, and they still refuse to consider peace. They are extremely stubborn, just to fall into the other extreme, when deciding to offer peace at last. The weirdest thing happened to me with Korea. He declared on me, I took 2 of his smaller cities to make a path to Seoul, and took it, to. After that, the war went on for like 40 turns with me just fending off an occasional unit or two, nothing really major. All of a sudden he comes out with a peace offer: all his gold(around 5000), 300gpt, all his luxxes, and best of all, Capitulation. Well, guess I welcome my new vassal...
I mean, yeah I took his capital, but his empire was still in a reasonable shape, and our armies were comparable in size and tech level. It seems a bit overboard.

- I don't understand some of the diplomacy modifiers, like "They know you're competing, and they hate it". Erm, of course we do, since T1, to be precise, that is the idea of the game. Or "Your behaviour infuriates them". What behaviour exactly? These modifiers seem rather arbitrary, just to make your life harder without any specific justification.

- Corporations seem to be a bit odd. The AIs build them, too, but so far I seem the only one who actually spreads offices. I yet have to see a foreign corp in one of my cities. So while I generate enormous amounts of additional wealth, from my own corp, the AIs totally underutilize theirs.

-Social Policies are not balanced very well. I really like the general idea behind the redesign. Imperialism looks so much more sound and coherent than Exploration, Piety is so nice, that I actually went Piety because I wanted to, outside of just experimenting, etc.
However, some Policies are so much stronger than others, that they are becoming no-brainers in comparison. Patronage is really weak, even more so due to the Diplo units. Aesthetics doesn't offer large enough benefits to prefer it over Industry, even if you want to focus on your culture game. Progress seems to be completely broken. Every time I hover over my cities, there's a large number of all kinds of modfiers popping up.

-Tourism boosts from completing CS-Quests and winning wars are way too high. I'm influential or dominant on half of the AIs, and at least familiar with the rest, without even trying for cultural victory.

- Perhaps it is intentional, but after a while all tile yields seem to be through the roof. Be it through tech advancements, or GPs. Coastal Tundra city with Pop 49 on T500(epic speed)? No problem.

 

[Funak]

- As mentioned before, the CS-Diplo system needs work. Diplomacy units are so utterly overpowered, that all other means to get influence become irrelevant. Why bother going Arsenal of Democracy and gifting units, when a single Ambassador gives me 90 Inf alone? Why sending Cargo Ships using nerfed Treaty Organization? Council enactments like Cold War make it even less attractive. Instead just Ambassador-bomb the CS, they are cheap to build, and so fast, that running into Paper supply issues never becomes a problem.
I'd suggest to either limit the ability to send Diplos to CSs to like one every 30 turns or so, or to make them weaker, or to make other Influence options more attractive. I also don't understand why gold bribes have been turned off. Swinging the cash hammer should still be an option, imo.

This is a CSD concern, not a CPP concern . Honestly I kinda agree with you, I like the influence on traderoutes however.

- I don't understand some of the diplomacy modifiers, like "They know you're competing, and they hate it". Erm, of course we do, since T1, to be precise, that is the idea of the game. Or "Your behaviour infuriates them". What behaviour exactly? These modifiers seem rather arbitrary, just to make your life harder without any specific justification.

Agreed, the competing thing is really stupid. "I know you're trying to win the game!".
Your behaviour infuriates them is usually the consequence of something you told them, refusing to go to war with them if they ask, cancelling a declaration of friendship and so on.

- Corporations seem to be a bit odd. The AIs build them, too, but so far I seem the only one who actually spreads offices. I yet have to see a foreign corp in one of my cities. So while I generate enormous amounts of additional wealth, from my own corp, the AIs totally underutilize theirs.

I get franchises popping up every few turns during the lategame.

-Social Policies are not balanced very well. I really like the general idea behind the redesign. Imperialism looks so much more sound and coherent than Exploration, Piety is so nice, that I actually went Piety because I wanted to, outside of just experimenting, etc.
However, some Policies are so much stronger than others, that they are becoming no-brainers in comparison. Patronage is really weak, even more so due to the Diplo units. Aesthetics doesn't offer large enough benefits to prefer it over Industry, even if you want to focus on your culture game. Progress seems to be completely broken. Every time I hover over my cities, there's a large number of all kinds of modfiers popping up.

Industry is stronger than aesthetics because industry is renaissance unlocked while aesthetics is medieval(or classical, can't remember) unlocked, they aren't balanced against each other and the renaissance ones are supposed to be stronger.

On the note of Statecraft, most people seem to think the tree is REALLY strong.

- Perhaps it is intentional, but after a while all tile yields seem to be through the roof. Be it through tech advancements, or GPs. Coastal Tundra city with Pop 49 on T500(epic speed)? No problem.

Everything does get bigger and better over time, feels rather natural. If the game is balanced around that however is another question.
I do like the current system a lot better than the vanilla one where you couldn't found a city post medieval because it would never catch up enough to be anything other than a drain on your resources.

 

[jinxed75]

I get franchises popping up every few turns during the lategame.

Good to know

Industry is stronger than aesthetics because industry is renaissance unlocked while aesthetics is medieval(or classical, can't remember) unlocked, they aren't balanced against each other and the renaissance ones are supposed to be stronger.

The order of magnitude still strikes me as too big, even if considering the era.

On the note of Statecraft, most people seem to think the tree is REALLY strong.

Well, I think they haven't discovered the power of the diplo spam yet

Everything does get bigger and better over time, feels rather natural. If the game is balanced around that however is another question.
I do like the current system a lot better than the vanilla one where you couldn't found a city post medieval because it would never catch up enough to be anything other than a drain on your resources.

Guess, I think it is subjective to everyone's view.
From my point of view, it renders the factor Terrain almost irrelevant, when choosing a settlement location. Also, it does nothing to catching up, as the big cities just continue to grow like crazy.
My Pop49 Tundra city still has around +115 food/turn and grows every 7 turns
There are also things that seem to rather illogical to me.
For example, why does a Town provide me with 9 food, regardless of the terrain it is settled on? For me, a town consists of another bunch of eaters, who of all things should consume food, rather than providing it.
I think there should be at least a little more emphasis on making decisions and trade offs, rather than providing "you win"-buttons left and right.
It's a minor nitpick, and nothing that would spoil the overall experience, just voicing my opinion.

 

[Gazebo]

Probably best to take balance concerns to a different thread- your issues are buried here.

G

 

[Funak]

Well, I think they haven't discovered the power of the diplo spam yet

Maybe, but it gives bonuses for having allies as well. And from a personal perspective I'll tell you that the +5 influence per GP pop as well as the reduces decay-time helps a lot, and saves you plenty of diplounit spam.

Guess, I think it is subjective to everyone's view.
From my point of view, it renders the factor Terrain almost irrelevant, when choosing a settlement location. Also, it does nothing to catching up, as the big cities just continue to grow like crazy.
My Pop49 Tundra city still has around +115 food/turn and grows every 7 turns

I would not say that terrian is irrelevant, but remote cities are way easier to sustain now than they were two thousand years ago, especially if there is something worth gathering/mining/whatever there. Also your city is clearly not a tundra-city it is a fishing-metropolis .
Sure they are not likely to catch up in pop, but they are likely to catch up in usefulness or at least to be selfsustaining. I mean once your city have enough pop to work all available specialists (and useful, non-overlapping tiles) additional pop really doesn't do much.

There are also things that seem to rather illogical to me.
For example, why does a Town provide me with 9 food, regardless of the terrain it is settled on? For me, a town consists of another bunch of eaters, who of all things should consume food, rather than providing it.

No idea what a town is supposed to represent. But adding food to the custom house was a brilliant move, made that improvement a lot more viable (especially since there is no foodbased specialist)

 

[jinxed75]

Maybe, but it gives bonuses for having allies as well. And from a personal perspective I'll tell you that the +5 influence per GP pop as well as the reduces decay-time helps a lot, and saves you plenty of diplounit spam.

Sure, it gives other boni. Maybe my view on it is a bit biased, because I was able to found a good religion, and therefore Piety looked much better to me. But is +5 inf per GP pop that much? A simple envoy is + 30, that's 6 GP pops.

I would not say that terrian is irrelevant, but remote cities are way easier to sustain now than they were two thousand years ago, especially if there is something worth gathering/mining/whatever there.

Dunno, never had issues in that regard. Place your remote city, buy all the growth buildings on settlement, and be fine.

Also your city is clearly not a tundra-city it is a fishing-metropolis .

No sea can have *that* much fish It has 2 fish, and 1 coral tile. Land to sea ratio is about 1:1.
Well, I'll get used to the sight. As said before, it is less of a complaint, more of an observation.

No idea what a town is supposed to represent. But adding food to the custom house was a brilliant move, made that improvement a lot more viable (especially since there is no foodbased specialist)

Well, it certainly turns rubbish tiles into absolutely amazing ones, that's for sure.

 

[Funak]

Sure, it gives other boni. Maybe my view on it is a bit biased, because I was able to found a good religion, and therefore Piety looked much better to me. But is +5 inf per GP pop that much? A simple envoy is + 30, that's 6 GP pops.

20 city-states in the game and you get 100 influence per pop, that's a decent amount. Depending on your build you can usually pick up more than 1 GP per 5 turns, meaning you're pretty much getting 1+ influence per turn with all CS, which is nice.

Well, it certainly turns rubbish tiles into absolutely amazing ones, that's for sure.

So does all GP-improvements.

 

[Gazebo]

I'd prefer to take this discussion to the balance thread, as this discussion is derailing this thread. That said, I think it is worthwhile to note that the goal of the Community Balance Patch is, in fact, this:

I think there should be at least a little more emphasis on making decisions and trade offs, rather than providing "you win"-buttons left and right.

Aside from Civilization-unique stuff, everyone has access to the same pool of decisions. Rather than having clearly poor and clearly great decisions (as with vanilla BNW) we want to have a pool of really good things, so that every choice is between two or more good things, not one good thing and three average things. Trade-offs are even more clear in the CBP, as if both are good, then the cost of taking one versus the other feels even more pronounced.

G

 

[Strigvir]

- As mentioned before, the CS-Diplo system needs work. Diplomacy units are so utterly overpowered, that all other means to get influence become irrelevant.

You think they are overpowered because AI doesn't spam diplomats as much as player does.

Why bother going Arsenal of Democracy and gifting units, when a single Ambassador gives me 90 Inf alone?

Arsenal of Democracy sucks, for sure, but using diplomats doesn't give units to a city-state.

Council enactments like Cold War make it even less attractive.

Cold War is like atomic era resolution.

Instead just Ambassador-bomb the CS, they are cheap to build, and so fast, that running into Paper supply issues never becomes a problem.

Again, you think they are strong because AI is rather passive about spamming them.

Swinging the cash hammer should still be an option, imo.

There is an option though.

- Corporations seem to be a bit odd. The AIs build them, too, but so far I seem the only one who actually spreads offices. I yet have to see a foreign corp in one of my cities. So while I generate enormous amounts of additional wealth, from my own corp, the AIs totally underutilize theirs.

Corporations require trade route completion and AI is exceptionally dumb in this regard.

Patronage is really weak, even more so due to the Diplo units.

You can't send diplo units on the other side of the world up until modern era.

Progress seems to be completely broken. Every time I hover over my cities, there's a large number of all kinds of modfiers popping up.

You have PTSD from vanilla happiness system. Just because there are red numbers in the unhappiness window, doesn't mean you need to get rid of them asap. As long as you have +10 empire-wide happiness, it's okay.

- Perhaps it is intentional, but after a while all tile yields seem to be through the roof. Be it through tech advancements, or GPs. Coastal Tundra city with Pop 49 on T500(epic speed)? No problem.

So what you are saying is that great people improvements are great?

From my point of view, it renders the factor Terrain almost irrelevant when choosing a settlement location.

You still need to think about terrain, there is a reason you've settled your "tundra" city in the coastal area.
Also, are you implying tundra starts should suck no matter the investment in the city?

I think there should be at least a little more emphasis on making decisions and trade offs, rather than providing "you win"-buttons left and right.

Emphasis on map rerolls you meant.

 

[jinxed75]

You think they are overpowered because AI doesn't spam diplomats as much as player does.

This is only an aspect of it, but a problematic one indeed. If the AI can't handle a mechanic properly, my life will be far easier than I want it to be.
And mechanics the AI can't handle properly we already had in numbers before. No need to add another one.

Arsenal of Democracy sucks, for sure, but using diplomats doesn't give units to a city-state.

Well, it used to not suck in the Vanilla game, if utilized properly. The main point of Arsenal of Democracy isn't about gifting units to CSs, it's about gaining Inf through gifting units.
Now it *does* suck, because the Cost-to-Influence ratio is several times higher for Diplo units when compared to regular units.

Cold War is like atomic era resolution.

Yeah, as well as high tier Freedom policies such as Treaty Organization. And there's the catch: At least in my game, the AIs seem to love "Cold War", so much indeed, I couldn't even bring one of them to sell me their vote for a "Nay".
This results in Treaty Organization being absolutely useless, cause you can only trade with your allies. Since your Inf with them doesn't decay, there's zero incentive to waste your trade routes for your allied CSs.

Long story short: The spamming of Diplomacy units is by several orders of magnitude more effective than any other method of gaining influence.
It renders high tier Freedom policies completely irrelevant, and is an effective method of beating the AI to every CS with a chance of success hovering between 99.999 and 100%.
Ironically, the AIs love for Cold War is the final nail on that coffin.

You can't send diplo units on the other side of the world up until modern era.

Of course you can. The biggest possible obstacle is a missing Open Border Agreement with one of the AIs, but then, you can usually reach almost every CS by circumventing, just takes a bit longer.

You have PTSD from vanilla happiness system. Just because there are red numbers in the unhappiness window, doesn't mean you need to get rid of them asap. As long as you have +10 empire-wide happiness, it's okay.

I wasn't speaking of red numbers in a happiness window, I was talking of all the Science, Food, and Culture gains from achieving something.

So what you are saying is that great people improvements are great?

Great people were *great* before, I was merely suggesting they are perhaps little too great now, if they give you Tile Yields >30....

You still need to think about terrain, there is a reason you've settled your "tundra" city in the coastal area.
Also, are you implying tundra starts should suck no matter the investment in the city?

The reason I settled there was a simple one: I didn't have better choices at this point in time.
And no, I'm not implying it should *suck*. I just think, there probably is some middle ground between *sucking* and being uberawesome.

Emphasis on map rerolls you meant.

Lying your words into other peoples mouths seems to be a hobby of yours.

 

[Funak]

This is only an aspect of it, but a problematic one indeed. If the AI can't handle a mechanic properly, my life will be far easier than I want it to be.
And mechanics the AI can't handle properly we already had in numbers before. No need to add another one.

The AI does build diplo-units, maybe not as single-minded as you do, but if you run into an AI that's actually trying to win a diplovictory he is going to spam them.

Well, it used to not suck in the Vanilla game, if utilized properly. The main point of Arsenal of Democracy isn't about gifting units to CSs, it's about gaining Inf through gifting units.
Now it *does* suck, because the Cost-to-Influence ratio is several times higher for Diplo units when compared to regular units.

I think 'suck' is a pretty strong word, depending on your playstyle you're going to be sitting with a lot of units needing upgrades around the atomic era, dumping them on city-states and use the +15% unitproduction from AoD is a decent alternative to paying for upgrades.
On another note, normal units are paper-free, doesn't need to travel and adds defensive units to your city-state allies to keep them safe.

To sum up, AoD does not replace diplounits (honestly it's not supposed to) but it gives you some alternatives. And even if you don't use them, +15% military unit production is actually really good.

Yeah, as well as high tier Freedom policies such as Treaty Organization. And there's the catch: At least in my game, the AIs seem to love "Cold War", so much indeed, I couldn't even bring one of them to sell me their vote for a "Nay".
This results in Treaty Organization being absolutely useless, cause you can only trade with your allies. Since your Inf with them doesn't decay, there's zero incentive to waste your trade routes for your allied CSs.

That's called a counter, there are a few of those. If you're focusing on diplomacy you can probably muster the votes to stop the proposition, if not, you'll have to bribe people I guess .

Long story short: The spamming of Diplomacy units is by several orders of magnitude more effective than any other method of gaining influence.
It renders high tier Freedom policies completely irrelevant, and is an effective method of beating the AI to every CS with a chance of success hovering between 99.999 and 100%.
Ironically, the AIs love for Cold War is the final nail on that coffin.

I haven't actually seen Cold war passed in quite some time, they like voting on it but they really rarely propose it. Technically speaking Cold War pretty much shuts down half the usefulness of the Austrian UA as well, just as the sanction city-states shuts down patronage and the German UB, counters are fine.

Of course you can. The biggest possible obstacle is a missing Open Border Agreement with one of the AIs, but then, you can usually reach almost every CS by circumventing, just takes a bit longer.

If you take 15-20 turns to get to the city-state you're going to spend 15-20 turns without paper, usually not a good idea.

Great people were *great* before, I was merely suggesting they are perhaps little too great now, if they give you Tile Yields >30....

They were so great that outside of academies they were never used
Yes part of this was because of spawning great merchants slowed down your great scientists, but still, they are supposed to be better than all other tile-improvements, that's why they are great tile-improvements.

Lying your words into other peoples mouths seems to be a hobby of yours.

Yeah, it's his thing, don't take it personally

 

[Strigvir]

Of course you can. The biggest possible obstacle is a missing Open Border Agreement with one of the AIs

And the horde of barbarians. In my games it takes more than one AI to pass through to the city on other side of the world.

Great people were *great* before, I was merely suggesting they are perhaps little too great now, if they give you Tile Yields >30....

Explains why every single guide recommended to avoid great merchants and academies weren't feasible to build past medieval era.

The reason I settled there was a simple one: I didn't have better choices at this point in time.

Looks like you underestimated your choice, because coastal cities (especially with sea resources) tend to be food-happy.

And no, I'm not implying it should *suck*. I just think, there probably is some middle ground between *sucking* and being uberawesome.

Well, you've got an average city out of bad settling position and you still think it's too much, so obviously you don't want a "middle ground".

 

[vyyt]

I'd suggest to either limit the ability to send Diplos to CSs to like one every 30 turns or so, or to make them weaker, or to make other Influence options more attractive. I also don't understand why gold bribes have been turned off. Swinging the cash hammer should still be an option, imo.

The strength of diplo units has been buffed in the most recent version(s), which I have not played with yet, so maybe some fine-tuning or balancing against quests is required (mybe just in the late game?), I don't know yet.

However the reason why the "cash hammer" was removed was that you (and AI) should not be able to easily ally any known CS anywhere on the map, distance being almost a non-factor. It encourages you to ally the nearby CSs first and makes allying the remote ones more challenging / difficult. Also you can consider buying (or producing) a diplo unit equivalent to spending your money on a CS directly - with the difference that it is not instant and it requires more effort and planning if the CS is further from your territory - you need to watch out for barbs on the way and/or ask AIs for open borders. Also you need to plan ahead and react if AIs also send diplo units to the same state. Another fun element is when war breaks out, then you can attack enemy diplo units and you have to protect yours when travelling to distant CSs.

In my games some AIs ally lot of CSs, especially in the early game when I focus on empire building and when diplo units are still weak. I also often see AI several AI diplo units heading for CSs. That being said, I do manage to overcome the AIs in CS influence by the time World Congress is a thing, but I have to focus on diplo units quite heavily (= sacrifice gold/production I could be focusing on something else).

The diplo units system takes some time to get used to, but I would never go back to the old ways of simply throwing gold on CSs left and right again.

 

[Edaka]

The diplomatic unit system also discourages player to buy out a ton of CS allies one turn before world congress voting comes up.

 

[Gazebo]

CSD takes getting used to, but, to sum up what others have said, it exists in order to make geopolitics slightly more relevant during a game.

G