Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by fallout3dc, Jul 19, 2014.
Which is the better wonder for happiness and growth potential?
I think Forbidden Palace.
Notre Dame provides a one-off happiness which only gives room for 10 new population.
While Forbidden Palace removes a % of unhappiness.
ALSO, with BNW, Forbidden Palace provides Delegate Votes (if you have Patronage).
FP, but the bigger consideration is who builds it. They are both wonders that I capture--not build.
Forbidden Palace. Two extra delegates is often helpful.
Notre Damn is too much loved by the AI, is at arather bad tech tree position, and provides an annoying Merchant point. Sure it gives extra faith, but I take the Forbidden Palace.
Forbidden Palace. You will get good use out of the WC votes!
Since BNW was released, I have built Notre Dame maybe once. The AI loves it and you will never get it unless you are playing at lower skill levels.
I'd definitely say Notre Dame. Forbidden Palace requires you to open Patronage at a point where you should be going for Rationalism. I'd even open Aesthetics before Patronage unless I was specifically heading further down the tree.
Notre Dame doesn't actually just give you 10 population, it has the possibility of up to 20 population in your Capital if you went Tradition, or at least two cities if you consider 4 happiness = 1 city to start with. Either way, it gives a lot more happiness than Forbidden Palace which is key in my games. World Congress votes don't really matter early game as you can't even propose any of the useful things (World Ideology), and by the time you can, City States play a much greater role than the 2 votes from Forbidden Palace.
I disagree, first of all opening Patronage is never a bad choice imo. because top 3 policies (opener + first level left and right) are all quite powerful. Opening Aesthetics - why? Secondly, the extra votes from Forbidden Palace is exactly useful in early game because so few other votes are in circulation. FP will secure you right to suggest resolutions until world enters industrial era and city states come into play, and apart from the benefit of controlling one of the resolutions being put up for vote, those two votes combined with a bit of diplomatic leverage is often enough to secure you a world religion if you want to go that way.
On Immortal, Notre Dame is on the always skip list, as it doesn't require any policies to open and the AI snags it early (its way too far off the standard Education beeline for this level)
As others have mentioned, if a nearby AI builds it, you can instead make that AI your target and then you'll get full benefit.
Forbidden Palace has a lot less competition (Patronage must be opened), but its not really one that someone seeking Cultural victory would be likely build (more important to finish Aesthetics tree faster when seeking cultural victory). Seeking diplomatic victory, it's extremely desirable. For science victory it depends on how many hammers you have. Domination victory would skip this and instead just conquer the AI city who built it unless the AI is extremely slow to build it.
Happiness wise, the forbidden palace is better for me - as i usually go for a pop heavy empire (with many cities).
Also, i'd take the 2 delegates over the +4 faith any day. You cant open rationalism Straight after Tradition so, you might as well invest a point in patronage anyway.
Opening aesthetics is important on non-domination games, because you need that defensive tourism against ideologies. Whether it's more important than opening patronage depends on your city-states.
Notre Dame; the fpt + divine inspiration from your religion is usually enough to get you a GP by the end of your game. Also, it's happiness when you most need it (by FP, CS and zoos come to prominence).
Whichever one is easiest to capture. I'll generally prefer the votes over the pinch of faith.
I never get either anyway so I go the ones that give you gold- Colossus , Petra etc. I'd love to be able to get the FP.
Yes, but ... seriously, how much does Aesthetics really help you in this regard? I mean, opener gives you +25 % artist growth, but how much is that really going to change in the big picture? At least for me, my main contribution towards Tourism only comes once archeology comes into play, and ironically, Aesthetics gives you zero help in this regard.
It's a marginal bonus if you capture one of the 'two/three of a kind' GW wonders that the AI can't fill properly, I suppose. Situationally handy with Persia, as well.
As I play on emperor I usually try for both with ND being the preferred one as it gives +10 off the bat. For the FP to equal that you would need 100 empire wide that are in you founded cities, although the extra votes are very handy to get Science funding passed.
The point of the early aesthetics opener is to get some great works in early eras. It's not supposed to help right away--it's meant to pick up some theming bonuses so that musician bombs produce better later, when the ideology attacks come. You have to finish aesthetics to win CV anyway. But for non-CV, you only need 1 level tourism on the weaker civs to play ideological defence.
Other way to go about it is political treatise and golden ages. More culture thru those means make the aesthetics opener pay for itself (only now you have higher culture, which helps defend the ideology).
Opening Patronage does not mean taking the top 3 policies. I'm normally at the Renaissance after 7 policies, meaning 6 in tradition and 1 more somewhere else. While the Patronage opener is reasonably decent, I find that if I'm making enough gold to be spending it on City States, that 20% isn't going to make much of a difference. Opening Patronage has never won me a game is basically what I'm saying. I'd much rather open any of the other trees than Patronage.
If you're not founding the World Congress, those extra votes make VERY little difference, as the likelihood is that you'll still be outnumbered if you try to propose anything that might benefit your own situation more than any of the AI's. For example, if you go for World Religion, the likelihood is that at this point in the game, AI religions are just as strong, if not stronger than your own, meaning it'd be voted down like 5 to 3, with the remaining 2 civs putting their votes on the other proposal (On a standard size map, 8 civs). And any others at this point have marginal benefits at best. You might be able to pass something like World's Fair, but what's the chances of that ever failing anyway? I just personally don't see much benefit to the World Congress until the World Ideology can proposed, at which point those 2 votes are effectively nulled due to the number of City States in the game playing a much more effective role. Sure, if you have the FP, you'll have 20% more gold when buying those City States, but as I said before, at this point I'm normally fine for gold, and I'd rather be getting the extra vision/movement and the Louvre from Exploration.
The ND, on the other hand, comes with a very very useful tech (Trebuchet's OP), as well as being a crucial tech on the way to Printing Press, effectively giving you half of the benefit the FB gives you with the extra delegate. The best thing about the ND is obviously the happiness boost though. It comes at a time where I'm normally in the 5 - 15 range on happiness, meaning any wars that may come soon would effectively cripple my happiness, so it gives a huge boost there in comparison to the FB, which normally gives me like 3 or 4 happiness at this stage. Plus, the extra faith is always nice.
So yeah, I'd agree with your statement that Patronage on the whole is much more useful than Aesthetics, but the point I was making is that Aesthetics is probably the weakest overall tree of the bunch, but I'd still pick the opener of it before I picked the opener of Patronage if I weren't intending to go further into the tree, which I would very very rarely do as I'd rather spend those culture points on Rationalism/ideologies.
Consulates? But yeah, if you ONLY want to invest in one policy in the tree, you might be better off with opening Commerce than Patronage, because the flat gold bonus from Commerce is more flexible than the CS discount from Patronage.
If you build FP, you have three votes yourself. On a standard 8 civ map, there will be 3 civs who haven't founded a religion, and you will frequently be able to buy these civs over to your side without too much effort, even more so if you have converted them to your religion. That's 6 votes for you out of the 12 votes in game at this point (asuming you are not yourself host). If just one of the remaining 6 votes is cast on the other resolution, that means you pass World Religion.
I'm not necessarily saying it's a winning strategy. World Religion is not the best resolution in itself, and you'll receive a massive diplomatic penalty with the founders of the other 4 religions. But given that having World Religion will give you 50 % tourism bonus in capital (and will cut another civ off from having it), it is in my oppinion a far better tourism defence than opening Aesthetics, which imo. maybe, and only maybe, is worth opening if you go for cultural victory, and completely sucks under all other circumstances.
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