Notre Dam or Forbidden Palace?

[rawrtrav]

Consulates?

As I said, I wouldn't spend a policy on Consulates though because by the time I'd be in a position to do that, I'd definitely be well into the Renaissance, meaning that I'd be getting Rationalism going. Plus, if we're going to talk about 1st tier policies, I'd personally consider Exploration to be the strongest of all, simply for the +3 hammers in coastal cities.

If you build FP, you have three votes yourself. On a standard 8 civ map, there will be 3 civs who haven't founded a religion, and you will frequently be able to buy these civs over to your side without too much effort, even more so if you have converted them to your religion. That's 6 votes for you out of the 12 votes in game at this point (asuming you are not yourself host). If just one of the remaining 6 votes is cast on the other resolution, that means you pass World Religion.

How often do you use your first spy as a delegate to win votes? You can't buy anyone's votes if you don't have a delegate in their capital. If I'm not the tech leader, I'd be using it as a spy to get free techs. If I am the tech leader, I'd have him in my capital trying to catch other spies.

By the time you get your second spy in the Industrial era, those extra votes are pretty pointless as you should be able to blow from Scientific Theory to Radio in a matter of 10 - 20 turns, meaning that City States would be involved no matter if you're the tech leader or not. And of course, City States give you more votes than just the 2. Sure, that 2 is a nice boost. I'm not saying the FB is a bad wonder by any means, I just don't think it's as good as ND personally, because that happiness comes at a crucial time after Colosseums and before Zoos/ideologies.

I'm not necessarily saying it's a winning strategy. World Religion is not the best resolution in itself, and you'll receive a massive diplomatic penalty with the founders of the other 4 religions. But given that having World Religion will give you 50 % tourism bonus in capital (and will cut another civ off from having it), it is in my oppinion a far better tourism defence than opening Aesthetics, which imo. maybe, and only maybe, is worth opening if you go for cultural victory, and completely sucks under all other circumstances.

I'm not saying that Aesthetics is a brilliant policy tree to open it; in fact I was saying the opposite, and using it to point out how bad opening Patronage is if you're not directly going for a diplomatic victory, and even then I'd consider something like Commerce to be more useful, or even Exploration for extra money from City State trade routes, combined with Freedom's +4 influence per turn from City State trade routes.

 

[IronfighterXXX]

You cant open rationalism Straight after Tradition so, you might as well invest a point in patronage anyway.

Actually it's what I usually do, so I vote in favour of ND

 

[Mutineer]

FP easier to build as not every AI going patronage

 

[Resipsa]

You have to finish aesthetics to win CV anyway.

Nope, you can go something like Tradition/Exploration/Rationalism til Secularism and then finish up Exploration. You'll have to go to war of course in the end but you can win a CV without Aesthetics.

 

[tetley]

You can do all the victory types if you go to war, but it's a grey area and a matter of semantics. If you knock out 2/3rds of the civilizations and win a diplomatic victory, strategy-wise that is really more of a domination victory.

 

[Resipsa]

You don't have to knock anybody out you have to steal some works and wonders that you might miss. But you don't need to commit genocide to win a cv with exploration. Sniping 2 wonder rich capitals is all that's really required

 

[danaphanous]

Consulates? But yeah, if you ONLY want to invest in one policy in the tree, you might be better off with opening Commerce than Patronage, because the flat gold bonus from Commerce is more flexible than the CS discount from Patronage.

yeah, and Big Ben is both great and is easy to get compared to FP. I've never seen AI build it. Later, when you have extra points to spend after rationalism, the flat gold boost to land trade routes can be decent if most of your cities end up inland. And it reduces road/RR costs by 50%! Later, you get a bit of science from gold buildings and another 25% discount on purchasing. Then comes +2 happiness from EVERY lux which beats FP AND ND. Commerce is never a bad tree to partially open. finisher is nice too, and you can purchase that many more things, it's a toss-up if commerce or patronage is better for wide-empire support, as the gold and discounts really, really helps for purchasing those numerous building copies and helping new cities, buying a quick defense force to repel invasions...etc. Plus all that gold can be channeled to CS too. You might not ally them all but you'll get the important ones and have the best of both worlds with happiness.

 

[kaspergm]

yeah, and Big Ben is both great and is easy to get compared to FP. I've never seen AI build it.

They do, but low priority indeed. I had a game not too long where I got a policy somewhere around Atomic Era, and since I by this point had nothing better to do, I decided to open Commerce because no-one had built Big Ben. Well turns out AI Japan had the same idea, because when I had done 4 out of 5 turns on BB, they completed it.

Come to think of it, wonder if this was a case of the behaviour that someone (Browd?) described in another thread, where AI will built a wonder to all but last turn, then switch to other production, and then when someone else starts building it, they will turn back and finish 1 turn before them.

 

[danaphanous]

I decided to open Commerce because no-one had built Big Ben. Well turns out AI Japan had the same idea, because when I had done 4 out of 5 turns on BB, they completed it.

Come to think of it, wonder if this was a case of the behaviour that someone (Browd?) described in another thread, where AI will built a wonder to all but last turn, then switch to other production, and then when someone else starts building it, they will turn back and finish 1 turn before them.

Ha! That is hilarious, sorry man. I saw that thread too. I always assumed the AI bought a GE or something and rushed it, but I hadn't thought they'd queue things and wait on them if they were almost done. Makes no sense for wonders unless it's like hubble and you are gonna get a natural GS in 2 turns or so. However, I have definitely seen them switch between wonders in my games with the city-view from a spy. I wonder if this actually happens because they tech or open a tenet that allows a more valuable wonder and then they put the first on hold for a while. I can't believe they store almost-built wonders like this on purpose.

I was amazed at my commerce savings with Venice last time I played, will definitely use the tree more often when I need to buy a lot of things.

 

[CraigMak]

These two wonders are no where near each other in the tech tree. Why are they being considered together? The question is Chichen Itza & Universities OR workshops & Notre Dame. Those are the two paths that are often mutually exclusive to one another.

Getting Notre Dame is completely irrelevant to whether or not you can get The Forbidden Palace.

 

[Xiao Xiong]

FP.

The extra votes are nice because while you may not have enough to be the host, you can still have a significant influence, like downvoting things that are going to seriously hurt you.

I don't propose world religion until quite late due to the diplomatic consequences. I will use my first few rounds of proposals to propose the world's fair, then downvote it, then propose it again. Everybody loves me for proposing it. It's a GREAT diplo benefit. All the declarations of friendship that inevitably follow can be harvested for massive quantities of gold, research agreements, etc.

And yeah those two extra votes matter. While you may not be the host, they sure will help you decide who is. You can ensure that civs you are allied with get to be host and that will make them like you even more, also, reduces the odds of a very hostile proposal against you.

Always preferred of ND. Plus, the AI goes for ND aggressively. You are much more likely to actually get the FB if you beeline for it, even on immortal.

 

[kaspergm]

I will use my first few rounds of proposals to propose the world's fair, then downvote it, then propose it again. Everybody loves me for proposing it. It's a GREAT diplo benefit.

Ha ha that's a pretty hillarious strategy, I never thought of that.

 

[poekie70]

I think both are great it really depends on the situation for example if iwere to be Ghandi I would pick the Notre Dame over the Forbidden Palace