Nubia First Look

@ShakaKhan

I absolutely agree that Nubia is way better than Egypt. I did my own comparison back on page 21, which I have quoted below for convenience. In my opinion, Nubia beats Egypt clearly in just about every aspect, the only exception being the unique tile improvement. The reason for this is that the Sphinx will get you early game culture, which is very important. It's a close call, however, and overall, Nubia is a lot better than Egypt.

I don't think it is fair to say that Nubia is just a re-hash of Egypt, though. While they do have some similar bonuses and originate from the same part of the world, I think Nubia is distinct enough, both in terms of theme and abilities.

So, since Nubia is supposed to be Egypt's rival, and have some similarities in the types of advantages they get and terrain they like, let's compare them:

UPDATE: With the newly released patch, the Maryannu got a much needed boost (+2 strength, +2 ranged strength, -20 production cost). I have updated the analysis below accordingly. I have used italics to highlight the bits I have changed.

Unique units: Maryannu Chariot Archer versus Pitati Archer

Unlocks with: The Wheel, 105 science into the tree (Maryannu) versus Archery, 75 science into the tree (Pitati). Both these are near the beginning of the research tree, so no major difference in availability.
Cost: 120 production (Maryannu) versus 70 production (Pitati). Even after the patch, this is still a big deal. With Nubia's production bonus for ranged units, they can build about 2.6 units in the time Egypt can build 1.
Strength: 35 ranged, 25 melee versus 30 ranged, 17 melee. The Maryannu has a decent strength edge here, with a ranged strength equal to that of a crossbowman, but earlier in the game, and significantly stronger melee defence. This is made less significant by the fact that Nubians can upgrade their archers more quickly.
Attack range: 2 versus 2
Movement: 2, 4 if starting in open terrain versus 3. So, this one depends on the terrain, but in most cases, I would take a flat 3 over a situational 2 or 4.
Upkeep: 2 gold vs 1 gold. In the base case, you can pay for 2 Nubian archers for each Maryannu. However, if you use the very popular policy which reduces maintenance by 1 gold, the archers have no upkeep, while the chariot archers still cost 1 gold.
Upgrades to: Crossbowman versus Crossbowman
Other:
* Nubian archers synergize with Nubia's UA, giving 50% more experience for ranged units
* Nubian archers upgrade from Slingers, while the chariot archers need to be built from scratch
* Maryannu Chariot Archer replaces the Heavy Chariot, which is a far less expensive melee unit that upgrades to Knight. Losing this early cavalry melee unit may hurt more than what is gained by having access to the Maryannu.

Overall, this is a very clear victory for Nubia.



Unique infrastructure: Sphinx versus Nubian Pyramid

Unlocks with: Craftsmanship, 60 culture into the culture tree versus Masonry, 105 science into the science tree. I'm guessing most of the time, you will get to the Sphinx a bit earlier, although it is not a huge gap.
Base yield: 1 culture, 1 faith versus 1 faith
Additional yields: 2 faith if next to a wonder, 1 culture with Natural history versus 1 yield of any type depending on adjacent districts
Maximum yields: 3 faith, 2 culture versus 1 faith, 6 other yields of various types
Build restrictions: Any land terrain, not adjacent to other Sphinx versus desert terrain, can be adjacent to other pyramid
Other: Pyramid next to city center increases district build bonus from 20% to 40%

This one is less clear. The Sphinx has an advantage in that it is a source of early faith and culture, which is very useful to secure a pantheon and the better forms of government. The pyramid on the other hand, has much higher yield potentials, and I can see it being useful and interesting to build in various spots around the districts in a desert city. It also provides early faith. The district building bonus feels like it is somewhat separate from the tile improvement itself, but it makes the Nubian pyramid a must-build if you have a desert tile next to your city center. Overall, I personally like the pyramid better due to its higher yield potential, but if we don't consider the district build bonus, I think this would be a draw, perhaps a slight win for the Sphinx, since it can be built on any land terrain, and provides that important early game culture.

I'll call this a draw for the tile itself, I'll cover the district bonus separately.


Build-related ability: Iteru versus Kandake of Meroe

Iteru: 15% production bonus for building districts and wonders next to river, can build on floodplains
Kandake of Meroe: 20% production for building districts, 40% if there is a Nubian pyramid next to city center

This is another clear victory for Nubia. Egypt's bonus is either a bit smaller or much smaller, and only applies to to tiles adjacent to a river. There is a small advantage in that it applies to wonders, but in general, this is not the best use for your high-yield floodplains, and only occasionally for other river tiles. Nubia wins.


Other ability: Mediterranean's Bride versus Ta-Seti
Mediterranean's Bride: Plus 4 gold for trade routes to other civilizations. Trade routes to Egypt provide 2 gold, and give 2 food to the trading partner.
Ta-seti: 50% production towards Ranged units, 50% more experience for Ranged units. Plus 1 production for mines over strategic resources, plus 2 gold for mines over luxury or bonus resources.

Once again, Nubia beats Egypt very clearly. I usually prioritize internal trade routes for growth and development. As for incoming trade routes, I have no control over those, and it seems that they will be more beneficial to my trading partners and competing players, than to me. The Egyptian ability may make you a bit of extra gold, but you will have to prioritize foreign trade routes. The Nubian abilities, meanwhile, are universally good. You will always want to improve strategic and luxury resources. Bonus resources you may harvest or improve as you please, but Nubia has an extra incentive to improve them. On its own, I would have preferred this ability over Egypt's, and that is before we get to the part about Ranged units. Ranged units are important throughout the game, and especially in the early game. 50% production is very significant, and 50% experience is also very good. To make it all even better, this synergizes with the excellent unique unit, which can be built in about the same time as regular archers, and will level up quickly. Nubia wins.


So yeah, Nubia just seems vastly superior to Egypt. I know I'm not saying anything controversial here. Egypt is one of the weakest civs in the game, while Nubia, by the looks of it, is going to be one of the most powerful.
 
Having tried them, I don't think so. Their abilities are all good, but none of them are super strong on their own.
  • 20%-40% production bonus for building districts. This is nice, but these aren't huge. Don't forget that you need a 100% bonus to cut production time in half. 20% and 40% is just about 17% and 29% production time reduction, respectively. Most of the time you are getting the 20% bonus. This is certainly helpful in any game, as districts are crucial, take a lot of time to build, and can not be rushed (unless you play as the Aztecs). But it is not a massive bonus.
  • Additional yields from mines. This one is situational, but usually there will be a few mineable resources around your cities. This is useful, but again, we are not talking about huge bonuses. Mineable strategic resources are nowhere to be found early in the game, although you might get lucky with luxury and bonus resources, and earn a bit of extra gold.
  • Nubian Pyramid. This is a nice improvement to put here and there around your districts, but it requires desert, and there are usually not many spots where you can get a good yield for these. You will rarely put down more than the one next to the city center.
  • Production bonus for ranged units and extra experience. This one is quite powerful, and will benefit you throughout the whole game. The production bonus will shave 33% off the production time, which is the same as the Agoge policy, albeit only for ranged units. The extra experience is very nice. However, ranged units are most important in the beginning of the game. In the long run, you can not rely on them entirely.
  • Pitati Archer. This is a great unique unit. Aside from having a small combat bonus and much better mobility, I like the fact that it fits right into the regular upgrade sequence, and that it doesn't cost much more than a regular archer. It synergizes well with Nubia's abilities for ranged units. However, as with all UUs, this one is only useful for a limited period of time, and in this case, that is very early in the game. You may not have time to take it to war against another civilization. It will probably help you with barbarian camps early in the game though. Unlike some UUs, this one doesn't replace something which requires a strategic resource, so that is a minor drawback.
I have said it before, but this is kind of a long thread, so I'll repeat myself: None of these abilities are overpowered on their own, but they are all good, applicable in almost every game, come into effect early, and synergize well. This makes Nubia a very good civ, and an easy civ to play well.

However, look at some of the competition. The Aztecs can finish districts much, much faster, get a really strong warrior replacement from the very start, can get free builders from their neighbors, and extra amenities. Persia gets a much better tile improvement which gets them early culture, as well as early culture from trade routes, of which they have more. Australia gets a bunch of extra housing and production. China alone gets to rush wonders, and their builders are better than everyone else's. Rome gets roads and monuments instantly and for free. Just to mention a few. There are many very powerful civilizations in the game, and many powerful abilities. Nubia is up there with the best of them, but in my opinion, it is not overpowered.

I seriously doubt you have played Nubia enough to know the real power of the combination of Pitati archer + production bonus + extra experience. Archer rush is already one of the most useful and reliable strategy even at diety level, but to successfully implement it, you first need enough archers, then you need these archers to reach your target cities early enough before they are well defended by walls and encampments. With the faster production and faster movement, these problems are all solved. The +5 strength also means you actually need fewer units to take down a city so you can pull the rush even earlier. As a matter of fact 3 pitati + 1 warrior or scout are enough to capture an unwalled city. If your neighbours are close you can even split army to wipe out two of them within 50 turns. The extra experience mean they get that +10 strength in district and +7 strength vs district defense very early, so even those early walled cities can be taken down with 6-8 pitati in 3 to 5 turns. They are archers so with the -1 maintainence card your economy is not affected even you spam a lot. After finishing 2 civs you will have quite a number of them with zone of control and even double attack. IMHO they are easier to use than Azetec Eagles, which are too costly to build enough and too slow.
 
I have only played Nubia 1 time, so you are right about that. :) I have no doubt that Pitati archers combined with the Ta-Seti ability make archer rushes even better than they are, if you are in a situation where it is at all possible. I often play on maps with fair amount of water, where civs are often separated by ocean. On those maps the archers will probably be obsolete before you can reach your neighbors. But in cases where you share a landmass with a few nearby AI, you can probably do some early conquest very effectively with Nubia.

I'll concede that the synergy between Ta-Seti and Pitati archers is very strong in instances where early conquest is possible. But does that make them "overpowered" in the context of the game overall?
 
Moderator Action: Godwin's Law seems to have struck again. Several off-topic Hitler/Nazi posts deleted. Remember, this is a thread about Nubia. Nubia!
 
I think Fireaxis has successfully imbued Amanitore with attitude and personality; the supposed moral issues surrounding her depiction don't concern me.
 
Ok, now that I've read a bit of scholarly texts about Kushite Queens, I'm fine with the portrayal of Amanitore in Civ6. Apparently, obesity, or at least the buildup of fat on the buttocks, were fairly common among Kushite Queens, including Amanitore.
I once portrayed Amanirenas as relatively thin in a comic I drew for an English course. Seems like I made a bad mistake.

About the Nubian city-list, I wonder why Abu Simbel is a city-name. Wouldn't it be better as a wonder in the game? I don't think there was a settlement located there. Also Dongola is absent from the list for some reason. There's a Dangeil on the list, but it's apparently not the same city.
 
A few days after release and JFD has already made 3 alternate leaders. :confused:

Anyway, hopefully Firaxis follows through with "a few" alternate leaders for Africa; i.e. not just Nubia!

Mali/Songhai/Ghana, maybe Zimbabwe or Swahili would be nice.
 
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To conclude this conversation then, I hope we can all agree that firaxis made amanitore as she is depicted in the game surely for no racial discrimination reason, but for more of an historical fact, just as they made Cleopatra attractive for her actions in real life ( using her appearance to persuade Julius Caesar and Mark Anthony and mangle in Roman politics to assure the independence of Egypt). We definitely are going to have more African leaders eventually and hopefully even more women, so for now this isn't a valid point to consider it a racial offence.

Moderator Action: Let's not get into issues of racial discrimination either. This thread is about game play issues. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Those archers are massively OP. With 3 moves one could enter hills, shoot and run e.g. Fun though.
 
Those archers are massively OP. With 3 moves one could enter hills, shoot and run e.g. Fun though.

Yeah, those fast moving archers are great at combat on hills, especially as they rake up experience twice as fast. So you get to level 4 (double attack) quicker.
You lose the +1 movement on upgrade so I prefer to keep them around and turn them into corps and armies :D
 
I have to say that Amanitore usually hates me in my games. I always fail to gain her Agenda Approval, because I'm slow at building districts in my cities (production often stinks). This leads to her denouncing me, comparing me to a flood. :( Do other players have this experience with her?
 
I have to say that Amanitore usually hates me in my games. I always fail to gain her Agenda Approval, because I'm slow at building districts in my cities (production often stinks). This leads to her denouncing me, comparing me to a flood. :( Do other players have this experience with her?
She started right next to me in my last game. I never got an agenda approval message from her (which makes sense since I never filled the district slots in any of my cities), but I still filled them enough for her to not hate me I guess (despite once or twice getting her agenda disapproval message after founding a new city). We were allies throughout the entire game, at any rate. The new pantheon that gives you 25% production towards your first district in every city probably helped...

As an aside, this is my first time seeing her in game. Her model is great, but her animations leave something to be desired. Also IMO they should have given her a Nubian wig, especially after giving Cleo that awkward short haircut.
 
Not sure if this is related to Nubia or a general bug.
After a game playing Pericles I finally decided to buy Nubia. I made Nubian archers for my cities and put them on alert as I always do but they didn't react to barbarians. Even when I got the city range-attack warning they didn't wake up. It wasn't a line of sight issue, they could attack just fine.
I had no issues when playing Pericles earlier.
 
Amanitore's forward settling....this is their second city.

Nubia's second city is near me.jpg
 
Not related to Nubia but I just got forward settled in the most idiotic manner by the Kongo. His fourth city, he has *plenty* of good space on his island (island plates map) but he comes across the ocean and drops a city right at my borders, in a *really* dumb spot. I mean, it's enough that he would forward-settle like that but if he had dropped it a couple of tiles to the right then at least he'd have fresh water, and a few more resources instead of the lone cattle tile he has now.

So stupid.
 
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