OB07 - The First Shall Be Last

[·Imhotep·]

Guys, this was EXCELLENT work on the path to a new civ. Truly magnificent!

As suggested I take the trade with Sandy, but decide to stir the pot some more with an addition :

And we bulb CoS...

Troops head into position according to Jet's perfect plan...

Yeah, like I give up the points now *rofl* ...

I hit enter and just as I prepare to move in I spot this:

We dit it! Einon has lost pop, probably due to maximizing production for units...

Could have been ugly though - this city wouldn't have held IBT ...

And the winner is:

I actually knew we would end up as Hyborem. I did a quick count tile with the demo screen - the last in this category was Hyborem (owning 21 land tiles). As he was last in pop too I was sure he is our new civ. Though I didn't dare to gift him our techs - I didn't know how much this would have buffed his score, and how close he was to others in score. And I WANTED to get Hyborem - he is actually really great for "come-from-behind-wins"...

The save is fresh after we changed - nothing done with it. We need a new discussion on where to head now...

Imhotep

 

[Ozbenno]

Excellent. Hyborem is a much civ than Doviello to end up as. I'll download the save and make some comments later.

 

[Ozbenno]

Firstly, great work everyone in getting to the last leg of the journey.

Now we just have to win the game. Easier said than done on loading up the save.

We have two cites situated in the middle of the Thessa/Einon war. So to expand at the moment we have to take out either of the top two civs, which just ain't going to happen at this stage. We do have a few troops but probably at the moment we just need to wait for the elves/elohim to fight it out (do we get Thessa's units back as manes as she is neutral?) and then decide who to pick on. I suspect that peace will be made next IBT.

Cardith is just over the water but we don't have access to Sailing yet (currently 46 turns).

The two options I think we have is first to get Hyborem/champions/corpses and attack probably the elves (as they are first and the defenses are spread out somewhat) or maybe Einon now as a CR promoted hyborem can do some damage but our lack of troops could be damaging, second we can wait until we get sailing and hit Cardith (he has arquebus as well) while building more troops.

In any case we should try and get Mardero as another hero to help out (Malevolent Designs) and grow our cities (especially Dis) as much as possible (recall the manes to the city to do this). Longer term the best way tio victory might be to take out the Doviello and get control of the Ashen Veil Holy City and try for Religious, either that or conquest.

Tech wise, bulbing through GPs is probably the best thing, employ as many as we can. Once we get Sailing we can think about attacking Cardith.

There is a spot for another settler in the east if we want to go all peaceful for the moment.

So lets get everyone's thoughts on the approach to our demonhood before we play the next set. Basically war or (temporary) peace.

I think war because the longer we leave the other civs, the harder it will be to win this game in the longer term as we don't have much to work with. If we can grab Spilan and Delouc quickly we might be able to get a temporary peace, some CR promotions for Hyborem and start on the Elohim/Kuriorates or use Delouc as a chokepoint and hold of the elves or even start another advance on the elves. If Thessa's neutral units become manes, we can grow pretty quickly. The 4 good civs out there (including the Balseraphs ) are no good for this.

As Immy only had 3 turns last time around, the save can be yours again if you want it. You get first refusal.

Roster
Ozbenno - Maybe On Deck
Jet
Conroe
Imhotep - Maybe UP
Diamondeye - Maybe UP -Maybe On Deck

 

[Ozbenno]

Anyone, anyone!!

Are you playing more turns Immy?

 

[Jet]

do we get Thessa's units back as manes as she is neutral?

He only gains pop by settling or from deaths of evil/OO/Esus (and Death or Entropy) units

Any unit that has Ashen Veil, Council of Esus or Octopus Overlords religion or Death 1 or Entropy 1 Promotion when it dies can generate up to two Manes units for your Civilization. Any City razed belonging to an Evil Civilization can cause you to gain 1 Manes, if owned by a Neutral Civilization you can gain up to 2 Manes.

I'm not optimistic about fighting, but we might find an opening. A hawk would help to see what's going on. There are a couple spots where we could settle 10-hammer unit factories, which is better than what we have now, but settlers are expensive.

The barb continent east of the elves is empty. We can't get OB; maybe if we switched to no SR, but still probably not. If Thessa and Einon made peace, I'd probably try to escape to there before our starting cities got overrun. Thessa could create an opening by moving units back south, but I'd be worried about Einon attacking us.

We need Charandon to fight someone, which may take a long time or never happen. We could get one of Charandon's cities with our world spell and fight him ourselves, but it requires Malevolent Designs, which is a very long way off.

Anyone, anyone!!

Yeah. I'd like to hear from the other players.

 

[·Imhotep·]

I can play the rest of my set. I just wanted to hear some discussion about our path. Personally I think we should wage war. Hyborem is great at this - we do not have many units, but our hero makes up for it. And if so, the time is now: Einon is hard pressed by Thessa, and Thessa will lose her south to Rhoanna. All the civs are in tight spots - a great chance for us!

 

[Ozbenno]

As much as I don't think we're in a great spot to fight I think we have to. Thessa will be hopefully drawn out over three fronts and we can grab the two nearest cities and pause to assess. If we wait for Maelevent Designs, we may be too far back to win.

Using the world spell to grab one of the Doviello cities and wage war there might be an alternative. We can teleport units around our cities to re-inforce and any losses we inflict will bring us manes.

Either way I think now is the time. Maybe war with Thessa, grab the two near cities, then straight on to the Doviello?

What do we think.

Feel free to carry on Immy, once we have some sort of clarity as to how to continue.

 

[Diamondeye]

Feel free to play some more Immy.

thoughts: Can we see Thessas graph? We left some of her troops on the frontier... Are they dead yet? I would hate to see them in the horizon when we move in to take two of her cities...

 

[·Imhotep·]

Well, I would rather declare on Einon - he seems pretty gassed...

 

[Conroe]

I've never played Hyborem before. I'd love to see some general comments (or a link) on playing the civ, as it seems he plays different from a normal civ. In particular, these manes seem pretty important; if I understand Jet's quote properly, it looks like we need to start razing neutral (ie Thessa's) cities.

As Immy notes, Einon appears to be running out of gas. Whilst Thessa has a rather significant stack in the area. I'm assuming Thessa will start recalling some of those troops to defend the Hippus border cities. And the last time I checked, Einon wasn't willing to make peace without Thessa giving up a city. That implies to me that Einon thinks he still has some fight left in him. Is it possible that he has a SOD marching north?

I think it behooves us to wait a turn (or two) and see if Thessa signs any peace treaties. Maybe build that Hawk that Jet suggested so we can get a view of the battlefield. We ought to be able to quickly grab a couple of Einon's cities, but it sounds like we need to be going after Thessa first ...

 

[Ozbenno]

Einon has arquebus while Thessa just has swords and archers. Much easier to deal with now. I think we have to wait a couple turns anyway, to assemble our troops into one stack as they are a bit spread out at the moment, so we can see if there is any peace happening.

 

[Jet]

@Conroe - The Infernal civ is also allowed to capture cities. The captured pop stays where it is rather than becoming manes. I don't know of a guide, but the PDF manual has basic information.

 

[·Imhotep·]

Anyone who wants to see how to play the Infernals: This SG did it!

 

[Ozbenno]

I hadn't looked at the PDF Manual for ages but did so again after Jet's recommendation. It has certainly become very thorough. 200 odd pages of info.

Upon reading the section about the Infernals, we should cast the world spell first thing. We get to pick one of the three highest pop AV cities (presumably all Doviello) and take it over. As we aren't dependant on food, our cities can't decrease in size, so doesn't matter how much cultural pressure we're under, we can keep it, so mawes no sense to keep the spell for a later stage. We can then look as to whether the Doviello are a better fit for first attack. According to the manual, we only get manes from the death of Evil, OO, AV, Death or Entropy units. Razing neutral civs cities can also generate manes.

 

[Jet]

we should cast the world spell first thing

I would agree, but the world spell requires Malevolent Designs.

 

[Ozbenno]

Nuts, I didn't see that. Back to war with the elves then for me.

 

[Diamondeye]

... Elves are the first target, I think this is agreed now... Will you play Immy, or do you want me to?

 

[·Imhotep·]

I'll play tomorrow. I still think going for Einon would be better, but I'll bow to the team's decision .

 

[Jet]

I'm not sure there's exactly a team decision for Thessa, but maybe a majority. I think the tally is (sorry if I'm misrepresenting anyone)
Ozbenno - attack Thessa
Diamondeye - attack Thessa
Imhotep - attack Einon
Conroe - "wait a turn (or two) and see if Thessa signs any peace treaties. Maybe build that Hawk that Jet suggested so we can get a view of the battlefield. We ought to be able to quickly grab a couple of Einon's cities, but it sounds like we need to be going after Thessa first ...

"
Jet - attack neither unless a good opportunity is seen; otherwise either build units and watch and wait, or escape to barb island

 

[Jet]

Fighting on the defense is also a tactical possibility. Not for manes, but to soften up the opponent with fewer losses than a fast, direct attack.