Obsidian Weapons too powerful

[hotrodlincoln]

Obsidian Weapons, as of the last update, needs to be scaled way the heck back. The obsidian units are all entirely resourceless, meaning anyone, anywhere, can build these regardless of whether or not they have access to obsidian. Because of this Obsidian Swordsman are now the go to military unit. They have the same strength as Axemen and Macemen granted by Bronze working, which is seperated by something like 10 techs and an entire game era.

Currently, there is no reason to research Bronze Working unless you are using it as a stepping stone to another tech. This does not feel right to me. Bronze completely redefined warfare, allowing the fighting men to be protected by truly robust armors for the first time, and allowing the creation of durable weapons. After all, a simple axe made from stone is only going to be useful for a swing or two before the edge chips off entirely. Pre-Bronze warfare was defined mostly by the usage of ranged weapons and skirmish tactics, utilizing throwing spears and arrows. The big exception to this are the Aztecs, who fought using more conventional tactics, but they are the exception, not the rule.

Anywho, can we scale Obsidian back a good ways for the next update?

 

[Nimek]

What you propose?
Stone worriors have 3 Obsidian 4 and bronze 5
No space to do anything .

 

[Hydromancerx]

Indeed its just a gradual progression where Obsidian is between Stone and Early Metals (Copper/Bronze).

 

[Pepo]

add a 25% bonus for bronze units against obsidian

 

[Faustmouse]

The Obsidian Swordman was indeed too powerfull when I played civ the last time. Maybe he should get one strength less.
And why don't they require any resources?

 

[hotrodlincoln]

Obsidian Swordsman
5 STR, +25% city attack
Requires: Obsidian Weapons technology, No Resource Requirements

Maceman
5 STR, +10% City Attack, +25% STR vs Melee
Requires: Bronze Working, Copper Wares OR Bronze Wares OR Iron Wares (This requires a chain of buildings to create, meaning that it will be several turns after the technology is researched before you can first benefit from it. I have no problem with this whatsoever, but it makes Bronze Working useless by comparison.)

Axeman
5 STR, +50% STR vs Melee
Requires: Same as Maceman

So am I the only one that sees a problem here?

Obsidian units need to go back to having a resource requirement. Thus, having them can spell out a huge early advantage, but it requires a rare resource to do so. Elephants operate in a similar fashion, in that they can steamroll most armies they encounter clear up to the Classical era, but they require a rare resource, a special technology, and have a hefty production cost.

 

[Hydromancerx]

But the Light Swordsman is STR 7. Which means if you can build a Maceman or Axeman you can also build a Light Swordsman.

Of course they are not unlocked until Iron Working, so perhaps they should be moved back to Bronze Working tech.

However I see you point that obsidian units should require obsidian resources.

 

[hotrodlincoln]

But the Light Swordsman is STR 7. Which means if you can build a Maceman or Axeman you can also build a Light Swordsman.

Of course they are not unlocked until Iron Working, so perhaps they should be moved back to Bronze Working tech.

However I see you point that obsidian units should require obsidian resources.

Obsidian Swordsmen are unlocked with the Obsidian Weapons technology, not the Iron Working technology. Maceman and Axeman unlock at Bronze Working, and Light Swordsman unlocks at Iron Working.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Obsidian Swordsmen are unlocked with the Obsidian Weapons technology, not the Iron Working technology. Maceman and Axeman unlock at Bronze Working, and Light Swordsman unlocks at Iron Working.

Ok i changed the following on the SVN, the Obsidian Spearman, Obsidian Maceman, Obsidian Axeman, Obsidian Swordsman, Jaguar Warrior and Lightning Warrior now all require Obsidian resource to be made.

And to clear some stuff up ..

- Obsidian Spearman - STR 4 - Obsidian Weapons
- Obsidian Axeman - STR 4 - Obsidian Weapons
- Obsidian Maceman - STR 4 - Obsidian Weapons
- Obsidian Swordsman - STR 5 - Obsidian Weapons

- Spearman - STR 5 - Copper Working
- Axeman - STR 5 - Bronze Working
- Maceman - STR 5 - Bronze Working
- Light Swordsman - STR 7 - Iron Working

 

[hotrodlincoln]

That should do the trick. The first time I ran into this I felt rather much like a chump. I didn't realize obsidian weapon units had been altered to be resourceless, so I teched up to Bronze Working before anyone else, rubbed my hands and deviously cackled as I created an unstoppable army of axemen with powerful new weapons and sent them to my neighbors to unleash hell...and my neighbors, having a large stockpile of equal strength units were considerably unimpressed

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well it should make for some interesting games for those that have obsidian resouce vs those who do not. However those that have no obsidian, copper or iron will be very screwed unless they have some sort of mounted animal resource.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Ok i changed the following on the SVN, the Obsidian Spearman, Obsidian Maceman, Obsidian Axeman, Obsidian Swordsman, Jaguar Warrior and Lightning Warrior now all require Obsidian resource to be made.

And to clear some stuff up ..

- Obsidian Spearman - STR 4 - Obsidian Weapons
- Obsidian Axeman - STR 4 - Obsidian Weapons
- Obsidian Maceman - STR 4 - Obsidian Weapons
- Obsidian Swordsman - STR 5 - Obsidian Weapons

- Spearman - STR 5 - Copper Working
- Axeman - STR 5 - Bronze Working
- Maceman - STR 5 - Bronze Working
- Light Swordsman - STR 7 - Iron Working

Did you change Where obsidian will appear in the game and the frequency too? Most of the time it's on unusable mountains and not hills. And frequency is very map script driven is it not?

Maybe this should not have been done after all? And hotrodlincoln just overreacted?

Maybe?

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

Yeah if you map script doesn't make say a lot of Barren or Rocky terrain then you probably will not see too much Obsidian. However volcano events can both give and take obsidian resources (as well as sulphur).

 

[Faustmouse]

However those that have no obsidian, copper or iron will be very screwed unless they have some sort of mounted animal resource.

Like in the real world

Later, those nation without coal, Oil, Uranium, Natural Gas... are also screwed. And you don't need to be able to build obsidian Units every game. I think it's good that only some people have access to Obsidian, they have to rush Bronze Working then.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Like in the real world

Exactly.

 

[LumenAngel]

Well it should make for some interesting games for those that have obsidian resouce vs those who do not. However those that have no obsidian, copper or iron will be very screwed unless they have some sort of mounted animal resource.

Just like in reality...
In you have no horse, no elephant, no copper, no iron in late ancient era, you are like dead. Unless you have a megafauna.
And if you have no stone too...

it's maybe off topic... it's realistic but a problem : tou dont have enough of these ressource and no AI will trade them even if they have many of them. Maybe some map ressource should give more than 1 ressource, or a building with "Stone in city vicinity" can give another stone, so you can trade it with some obsidian

 

[Thunderbrd]

I used to live in Northern California. We had obsidian all over the place there due to a volcano in the vicinity but the actual volcano site was not where you'd have to be to find it. The debris field from the volcano was HUGE! My point being... maybe volcanoes shouldn't just generate obsidian on their plot but may also generate obsidian on adjacent plot(s) when they go off.

This would even the score on being messed up by a volcano in many cases. And sadly, volcanoes tend to pick native obsidian sites to emerge so perhaps that should also be removed as a trigger and instead use some kind of 'hidden' resource to trigger these... or perhaps a Hotsprings resource (from which you'd also be able to derive sulphur via a building that can process it from the site... sulphur access is another strategic resource that's in short supply on most maps. Along those lines of thought too I was thinking that caves may be something one should be able to derive sulphur from (bat guano))

 

[pi4t]

Along those lines of thought too I was thinking that caves may be something one should be able to derive sulphur from (bat guano))

Are you getting muddled with saltpetre, one of the other components of gunpowder and (whatever Civ 3 may say) reasonably common, I believe?

 

[Rodnok]

Could be an interesting change. It would make neanderthal culture (units STR 4) more useful and obsidian much more sought for. I'd say anyone has 'some' resource nearby and there are atlatlists anyway... It is a little boring when barbarians have obsidian units easily.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Are you getting muddled with saltpetre, one of the other components of gunpowder and (whatever Civ 3 may say) reasonably common, I believe?

True there's some overlap there... but sulpher can be readily extracted from guano.