Obviously bad or obviously good pantheon/religious beliefs

[feldmarshall]

Of course your strategy, intended victory type and your geography affects the best choice of beliefs, but are there obviously bad beliefs (it always sucks compared to other choices)? Or are there obviously good ones, that you should always pick except under special circumstances?

For example, at a glance

God of Craftsmen
+1 Production in cities with Population of 3+

Seems pretty weak. I mean, when you only have small number of cities it don't give that much, and when you're big a mere +1 production doesn't make that much of a dent.

For reference, here is a list of beliefs

 

[Athenaeum]

Yeah I agree that one kind of seems crappy. But think if you had 3 cities in terrain that had no hammers or hills whatsoever, that would increase your hammers from 1 to 2, which would be a big deal. Not that that's likely ever to happen, but the point is that there's almost always some situation where a specific pantheon might come in handy.


On a nearly unrelated note, I adopted a pantheon the other day that I had never done before with the Shoshone - God of War. I had a couple of barbarian camps near my border and milked them for faith. It was kind of cool I guess.

 

[Dushku]

Fertility Rites is much worse than it looks because it only applies to EXCESS food, not total food.

If you're in a situation where there seems to be no good pantheon, God King is a nice default. It becomes less powerful as the game goes on, but it's a nice boost in the early game.

FilthyRobot's religion guide does a nice job of explaining why some pantheons/beliefs are better/worse than they first appear.

 

[feldmarshall]

FilthyRobot's religion guide does a nice job of explaining why some pantheons/beliefs are better/worse than they first appear.

I looked this up, it seems to be a 1.5 hours video. Is there a summary of it somewhere, or a shorter version?

 

[joncnunn]

The most obviously bad one that's taken (all the time by the AI) : Goddess of Protection

Zero economic benefits.

On the obviously good ones, most of these are actually starting location specific, but it's Desert Faith is the one most commonly to be over the top, (largely because it works on flood plains in addition to desert)

In general I tended to prefer Faith producing pantheons (too many to list) followed by food producing pantheons (Goddess of Hut / Sun God), and culture producing ones last.

In addition, I prefer pantheons that work directly against the terriagn as opposed to having to build improvements on them.

 

[reddishrecue]

Ive been liking food producing pantheons and beliefs lately for some reason.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Desert Folklore under the right circumstances is insanely good. I like the faith from quaries and faith from Iron/Salt/Copper as well. If I can't really max out any of those, I don't really bother with religion tbqh

 

[GoStu]

God of Craftsmen isn't actually all the bad. Keep in mind the time in the game where you can get that belief - it's comparable to Liberty's +1 Production per city. Your smaller cities of 3-4 people are probably only working farms and that extra hammer can mean good stuff. It doesn't scale well into late game, but even to a 20 production city it's a 5% boost. That extra hammer could also be the difference in a Wonder race - in the early eras there's many to try for and competition is at its most fierce.

An obvious loser is Religious Art. +5 Culture and Tourism on a National Wonder that's irritating to build at best? Unless you're going for a CV it's not helpful at all, and even if you are it's a tiny bonus, too late.

A less obvious loser is Monument to the Gods (or whatever it is that's 15% more Production to ancient/classical wonders). God of Craftsmen (see above) is likely to net you as much or more production and it applies to everything and never expires.

 

[consentient]

Someone should really make a mod that balances the pantheon beliefs, already.

 

[HeliosDisciple]

Peace Loving doesn't seems very good. +1 Happiness per 8 followers in foreign non-enemy cities isn't a bad bonus, but seems like you'd irritate said foreigners by spamming your religion in their cities.

I think the pantheons are fairly balanced, given their dependance on the map. The biggest problem may be the Celts - they're why Dance of the Aurora says "no Forest". Protection isn't amazing, but it's also more of an AI belief to defend their cities from you.

 

[Matthew.]

I actually like the +1 hammer as well. It is my go-to choice if nothing else is looking appealing. Kind of difficult to measure its overall effectiveness. On the one hand, over 75-100 turns it pays off one full ancient/classical era building! On the other hand, there is a clear difference between my games where I am low on hammers or where I have a decent hammer count.

 

[GoStu]

Peace Loving doesn't seems very good. +1 Happiness per 8 followers in foreign non-enemy cities isn't a bad bonus, but seems like you'd irritate said foreigners by spamming your religion in their cities.

I think this one, Pilgrimage (faith for foreign followers), and World Church (culture from foreign followers) and all intentionally tuned to be weak. There's theoretically no upper limit on their potential- particularly with Pilgrimage. One could easily dominate the religion game if it's allowed to be strong. Tithe would also suck, except that it counts from your own citizens which makes it a reliable earner.

I think the pantheons are fairly balanced, given their dependance on the map. The biggest problem may be the Celts - they're why Dance of the Aurora says "no Forest". Protection isn't amazing, but it's also more of an AI belief to defend their cities from you.

I think it's more a matter that Desert Folklore is stupidly powerful. Tundra is difficult to work a lot of, while the resource ones are naturally limited. DF on the other hand applies to Flood Plains, I.E. the tile desert civs work the most of.

 

[Amrunril]

Peace Loving doesn't seems very good. +1 Happiness per 8 followers in foreign non-enemy cities isn't a bad bonus, but seems like you'd irritate said foreigners by spamming your religion in their cities.

It depends on the situation. Obviously a civ trying to spread its own religion will be annoyed, but a civ that didn't found may be happy to get yours, especially if you have good follower beliefs. Followers in city states count as well, which may make a big difference on the right map.

On a similar note, though, Swords into Plowshares (15% faster city growth rate when not at war) does seem very weak. 15% growth is nice, but all it takes is one civ halfway across the war declaring war for you to get nothing. This is a problem in single player because the AI doesn't know when it's losing wars, and it makes the belief virtually useless in multiplayer because the rational move for any player who isn't trading with you is to declare war just to deny you the growth bonus.

 

[reddishrecue]

The +1 hammer pantheon is useful when you need to get that production up early and quick. +1 hammer per work boat i have found useful also particularly when you have a coastal capital that has many workable sea tiles. Faith wont be a problem when you get to build a temple that much faster.

 

[Dushku]

If I can't really max out any of those, I don't really bother with religion tbqh

Even if you can't get a good pantheon or religion, you should still try and generate as much faith as you can for great people later on.

 

[bayard sartoris]

And what does you people think about Religious Settlement (15% faster border growth) for Liberty games? I mean, if there's no obvious faith/food pantheons to pick, it would be nice to have your borders growing like you went Tradition, but settling cities faster to grab all the good resources around.
I never did it myself, was just wondering. Seems nice, doesen't it?
King-God is also nice in the absence of obvious pantheons, but if you get to found a religion it becomes kind of an useless pantheon on later eras, or so I think.

 

[Redaxe]

And what does you people think about Religious Settlement (15% faster border growth) for Liberty games? I mean, if there's no obvious faith/food pantheons to pick, it would be nice to have your borders growing like you went Tradition, but settling cities faster to grab all the good resources around.
I never did it myself, was just wondering. Seems nice, doesen't it?
King-God is also nice in the absence of obvious pantheons, but if you get to found a religion it becomes kind of an useless pantheon on later eras, or so I think.

Religious settlements is a terrible choice imo. Usually if I intend on playing wide I tend to start with the Tradition opener so I can grow super fast borders. That saves a lot of gold from having to buy tiles too - and later on it gives me the choice to take Aristocracy if I'm struggling with late game happiness.
Otherwise a good option is a culture pantheon like God of the Open Sky - if you have a lot of pastures that is a great choice.

God of Craftsmen is pretty average to be honest - I've only ever chosen it once and that was when I hit a population ruin and got to 3 population really early and then found 2 religious citystates closeby that gave me enough faith for a free pantheon. In that case it seemed pretty good because I got it around turn 15 and it kicked in very early. If you were to choose it at turn 30 I think it's value would be a lot less.

I tend to think a food pantheon would be stronger but if you intend on planting a lot of cities that extra production will accelerate your Civ a bit quicker. It's certainly better than Monument to the Gods though - no question there.

I'd say an underestimated pantheon is Goddess of Love - if you play wide this eventually accounts for +1 happiness per city so It is sort of equivalent to the Ceremonial Burial belief. And if you play wide with some points in Piety you can usually generate enough faith from your shrine/temple output to compensate for not having a faith pantheon.

 

[consentient]

Even if you can't get a good pantheon or religion, you should still try and generate as much faith as you can for great people later on.

I disagree. The easiest way to end up with 50-150 FPT is to conquer 3 or 4 capitals.

 

[Dushku]

I disagree. The easiest way to end up with 50-150 FPT is to conquer 3 or 4 capitals.

How is stating one way to get a bunch of faith disagreeing with getting a bunch of faith being valuable?

 

[kaspergm]

Imo. some of the very worst beliefs are Ancestor Worship (+1 culture from Shrines, pantheon) and Liturgical Dramas (+1 faith from Amphitheatres, follower). Those are just downright horrible compared to most of the other options in their respective groups. But the worst of all is Underground Sect (spies exert religious pressure, reformation), which is simply absolutely useless no matter what situation you are in.