OCC test games

[Welnic]

There was a lot of discussion a while ago about whether philosophical or industrious was better for OCC. I finally got around to making some test starts for people to play around with. The start is by a river with 3 flood plains, pigs, incense, a mysterious blank grassland and forest covered everything else. In addition there is either Stone, Marble, or Gold.

The settings are small pangea with 9 other civs. Epic speed so you can build more units late in the game. It's a good setup for either conquest or space race. Monarch difficulty.

There are three leaders, each with the 3 different resource starts. Gandhi, philosophical and spiritual, Ramses, industrious and spiritual, and Zara Yaqob, creative and organized. Someone in another thread was trying to come up with the worst combo for OCC, that is my take on that.

So give them a spin and what suits you the best. The starts were made with 3.13 so they should work for both 3.13 and 3.17.

 

[Gwynnja]

I'm going to be lazy and give my answer without playing: Gandhi is the best leader for an OCC. As long as you can get the Pyramids, everything else will fall into place. The national wonders are far more important than any wonder (other than the 'Mids) for your city. However... Whenever I play an OCC, I cheat a little bit by re-rolling until I get a start that suits my criteria: stone for 'mids, coastal for navy, riverside for levee and hydroplant, and lots of food for whipping and specialists. I also quit if someone beats me to the 'mids.

 

[CLST]

The Temple of Artemis is also nice in OCC.

 

[Gwynnja]

The Temple of Artemis is also nice in OCC.

There are lots of wonders that are nice, but IMO the only one that's necessary is the 'mids.

 

[vicawoo]

If you have stone, industrious isn't as important. Maybe if you went for pure engineers/spies/scientists, except for the oracle of course, you avoid that wasteful gold thingy.

 

[CLST]

There are lots of wonders that are nice, but IMO the only one that's necessary is the 'mids.

ToA is nicer than the pyramids.

ToA is a wonder that only affects the one city. I can't really think of any others that are just (Hey in this city only you get some neat stuff!)

Pfft @ representation. Hereditary Rule is just fine.

 

[Killroyan]

I definitely fail to see why the temple of artemis is better then the pyramids? Pyramids will allow representation. Extra beakers for the settled great persons and the added happiness is huge at start. ToA gives you an extra priest and some extra income but nothing else. Best leaders for OCC are in my book Peter/Ramsess/Ghandi/Huayna/Bismarck. Philosophical/ind/exp/spi/fin leaders.

Wellnic, I will try to see if I can get a game going tonight. Good for setting this up.

 

[Gwynnja]

ToA is nicer than the pyramids.

ToA is a wonder that only affects the one city. I can't really think of any others that are just (Hey in this city only you get some neat stuff!)

Pfft @ representation. Hereditary Rule is just fine.

It's like I'm sitting here playing civ with my brother's kids. If you honestly think that Representation is meh and HR is just as good, I can see that arguing about this with you is a pointless waste of time.

 

[oyzar]

You don't actually need the mids in occ... And doesn't having different starts kinda defeat the purpose? Stone is better than marble which is better than gold(for occ).

 

[Lekdevil.NL]

I think the whole point on this thread is to actually test which approach and traits work better, instead of trying to argue your way out of it...

 

[oyzar]

You can look at sgotm 07 if you are looking for strategies and aproaches, you don't get different traits there though...

 

[semirami]

ToA is nicer than the pyramids.

ToA is a wonder that only affects the one city. I can't really think of any others that are just (Hey in this city only you get some neat stuff!)

Pfft @ representation. Hereditary Rule is just fine.

What about The Greal Libray? I prefer to have 2 extra scientists and 8 gpp, instead of priest and some extra commerce from pathetic trade routes+ the chance to pop unwanted merchant, or prophet.

And no, the Mids is the best wonder for OCC.

PS. Sorry for the offtopic. I'll try Ramesess II

 

[Zekrazey1]

It's like I'm sitting here playing civ with my brother's kids. If you honestly think that Representation is meh and HR is just as good, I can see that arguing about this with you is a pointless waste of time.

It depends on how much food you have access to and how significantly you're forced to divert from the COL, Bureaucracy, Pacifism, Education, etc. tech path (by your neighbours ). With enough food, the 3 happiness from Representation isn't sufficient, so early on it becomes a choice between fewer, higher science output specialists or simply more specialists. While with HR you can tech straight up the education+liberalism techpath with early and cheaply bought happiness, with the Pyramids you're playing catch up with happiness by first diverting over to drama (which you can delay till the techs are cheap and you have the additional hammers from great scientists to build the Globe Theatre fast if you went HR first).

 

[Indiansmoke]

It depends on how much food you have access to and how significantly you're forced to divert from the COL, Bureaucracy, Pacifism, Education, etc. tech path (by your neighbours ). With enough food, the 3 happiness from Representation isn't sufficient, so early on it becomes a choice between fewer, higher science output specialists or simply more specialists. While with HR you can tech straight up the education+liberalism techpath with early and cheaply bought happiness, with the Pyramids you're playing catch up with happiness by first diverting over to drama (which you can delay till the techs are cheap and you have the additional hammers from great scientists to build the Globe Theatre fast if you went HR first).

You got it backwards...it is when there is plenty of food that the pyramids (hence early representation) become overpowered. Food means growth means scientists. For hapiness just use theater and culture slider if you are short of happy resources....until you build globe theater that is...which should be asap anyway.

 

[Zekrazey1]

No I don't. I've tested both and with enough food (note - we're probably talking about 5 or more food resources here), HR and Philosophical you tech so fast up the tree that the pyramids, early representation and the subsequent necessary diversion (to drama) from the critical tech path just wastes your time. The faster the path to constitution, the shorter the time window for good use of the Pyramids. Having said that, the time difference is not hugely different, it probably comes down to a few turns.

The point is that with lots of food, even a short delay in getting additional happiness becomes significant.

 

[Indiansmoke]

No I don't. I've tested both and with enough food, HR and Philosophical you tech so fast up the tree that the pyramids, early representation and the subsequent necessary diversion (to drama) from the critical tech path just wastes your time. The faster the path to constitution, the shorter the time window for good use of the Pyramids. Having said that, the time difference is not hugely different, it probably comes down to a few turns.

The point is that with lots of food, even a short delay in getting additional happiness becomes significant.

What do you mean that you will not tech literature? No National epic? Drama is one tech away from Literature...

 

[Zekrazey1]

If you're philosophical and spamming specialists, each additional wonder you try to get early on becomes an expensive diversion. So yes, I'd skip Literature and the National epic. I mean, if at each point of choosing what next to research, it'd probably go something like this:

After teching various resource techs and then writing:

Literature vs CoL? CoL
Literature vs Pacifism? Pacifism
Literature vs Bureaucracy? Bureacracy
Literature vs Education? Education
Literature vs Liberalism? Liberalism

Sure, the tech itself is cheap, but the other techs either give you stuff that you don't even need to build to see a benefit or in the case of education, 2 buildings (uni and oxford) that I'd rather build and furthermore, they're all along the same tech path.

 

[Killroyan]

Skipping the NE and the GL??? Wow. Ok the GL is a very very nice plus (12 beakers per turn and 8 GPP is nothing to sneeze at) but not completely necessary, but the NE is in the top 5 of most important buildings in OCC if you ask me.

Also comparing Literature to COL/Pacifism/etc.... is silly if you ask me. It is a very small detour but nets you in so much advantages. You can even use it as trading material since the AI loves to trade this technology. You are going to research Aestethics anyway so you can get drama and the globe theater so why not divert your research for a couple of turns to get literature? I really don't see this.

But then again everybody has their style. I can understand why you don't want your GP pool polluted by GA points. Please show me a game your style because it is very interesting since I never play this way.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Is anyone else actually going to play it? I'll probably give Egypt a shot tomorrow, although it's tempting to use Zara.

 

[Zekrazey1]

Skipping the NE and the GL??? Wow. Ok the GL is a very very nice plus (12 beakers per turn and 8 GPP is nothing to sneeze at) but not completely necessary, but the NE is in the top 5 of most important buildings in OCC if you ask me.

Also comparing Literature to COL/Pacifism/etc.... is silly if you ask me. It is a very small detour but nets you in so much advantages. You can even use it as trading material since the AI loves to trade this technology. You are going to research Aestethics anyway so you can get drama and the globe theater so why not divert your research for a couple of turns to get literature? I really don't see this.

But then again everybody has their style. I can understand why you don't want your GP pool polluted by GA points. Please show me a game your style because it is very interesting since I never play this way.

This was in response to the person who said that if someone considered HR to just as good as Representation, then they could be compared to his brother's kids . It really does depend on the map. If my population is too limited due to lack of health, food, or whatever, then the Pyramids, Great Library, etc are more attractive, otherwise HR lets you keep ahead (not by much, admittedly) through earlier increases in happiness and population.

If I can grow big enough, fast enough, then it's just that at each of those points above at which I might consider getting Literature (first needing Aesthetics and Polytheism and then having to build the wonders), the other options seem the same or better than Literature. GL and NE? Well I can get more specialists and more GPP by simply running Caste System. I can get the same bonus to to GPP just switching to Pacifism (and Philosophy is also a pre-req for Liberalism and Nationalism (which I like to get with Liberalism)). Ok, so the comparison with Bureaucracy is not so clear cut. Education? Well that extra 12 beakers is nothing compared to what you get from the Uni and Oxford. After that, I might consider getting it, as that's about the time I'd start teching to Drama before I research Constitution, but it's at around this point we converge with the pyramids track anyway, just hopefully ahead of time.

I suppose conceivably you could get Polytheism early instead of Meditation and research Aesthetics and Literature instead of Philosophy. If you're already going wonder heavy, perhaps that's the better route. Also, remember, these choices are assuming we've already decided to use HR. If we're comparing to a non HR track, then it's not Lit + Aesthetics + Poly vs any of those choices above, it's more a case of (roughly) Med vs Poly, Monarchy vs Aesthetics, leaving only Lit vs those choices above (and Lit by itself is much cheaper than any of those),.