Nobles' Club 346: Peter of Russia

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Peter of Russia, whom we last played in NC 271; we last played the Russians under Catherine much more recently in NC 344. The Russians start with Hunting and Mining.

• Traits: Peter is Expansive and Philosophical. Expansive adds +2 to all cities, gives a +100% bonus to Granaries and Harbors, and a +25% bonus to Workers (note that the worker bonus doesn't apply to excess directly converted to ). Philosophical gives all cities +100% generation and a +100% bonus to Universities.
• The UB: Research Institute, a Laboratory with +2 free Scientists. A nice boost when going for a Space Race victory, but being the latest UB in the game it'll probably come too late to make a real difference.
• The UU: Cossack, a Cavalry with +50% vs. Mounted units. Barring the odd UU these guys aren't going to get sniped by another 2 unit until Tanks start rolling around.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Fractal, Temperate climate, Medium sealevel.

Spoiler edits :

Two isolated Jungle tiles near your start were removed.

Spoiler isolated? :

Semi-isolated.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 346 Peter Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

Not entirely sure what to do in this situation. Common wisdom is, of course, to settle the plains hill, but I don't fancy moving towards the coast - especially playing a leader that is neither FIN or starts with Fishing - and while SIP doesn't get the bonus hammer on the city tile it does get the EXP bonus hammer building a worker. Moving away from a grass cow and a clam is also not ideal, but who knows what's in the fog. Could be Gems and Fish out there for all I know. And for that matter, an EXP bonus worker is cool and all, but what is that worker supposed to do with our starting techs and SIP? We don't start with Fishing, so even if the worker is timed perfectly with discovering Bronze Working to start chopping, what will that worker chop into? Decisions, decisions...

Overall I'd probably send the scout NW -> N(W?) to see if there's any convincing arguments to move onto the Plains hill, obviously move there if he uncovers Gems and Fish or the like, but otherwise...not sure. To plains hill, or not to plains hill? What do the experts make of this?

 

[antimony]

Other option would be towards the river but with all that forest it is a T3 settle at the earliest which feels too slow.


I would say if scout finds nothing NW, maybe going BW-Fishing and opening double worker is better than AH and having nothing to improve after the cow. Single clam is bad but double clam is ok right?

 

[AcaMetis]

I do like seafood for the extra commerce they yield, though of course it depends on the map (and the leader) whether it's really better than having rolled something like riverside rice.

 

[sampsa]

Intuitively I'd try to make SIP work somehow. Claims a lot of good tiles, doesn't lose turns or forest. Antimony's suggestion makes sense.

edit: after scout move

Spoiler :

I think now ph is much more attractive.

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Sounds like the map generator did a good job. I was hoping the question of whether to PH or not to PH would be an interesting one .

 

[chinemol]

think settle in place, delay worker a bit. AH, fishing, BW, pottery. late expansion, so crossing fingers...

alternatively settle southward, try to find sth usefull. maybe settle on a jungle tile to kill it. in this case, scout NW,NE to check we're not moving away from anothe usefull tile

 

[konata_LS]

Up to 500AD. Emperor NHNE. normal speed.

Spoiler :

Usually I avoid semi-iso on emperor, but Peter's PHI trait is encouraging. I decided to try this map. Even if I'm defeated later on in the game, the semi-iso settings allows me to practise the empire management and generation.

Moved the scout to check what I could get if settling on the PH. The scout only found another clam. If the leader was Joao, I would settle on the PH, because Joao could go straight for BW then chop the workboat. Also Joao's starting techs were quite far from AH; moving away from the grass cow wouldn't hurt too much. But the leader here was Peter who had hunting no fishing. On emperor, with one pre-requisite, AH took 13 turns. SIP would get 12 turns worker, that worker needed 1 turns to move on the cow tile - so AH would finish just in time that the worker was on the cow tile. These factors decided me to SIP.

The surrounding land looks quite depressing . No early happiness resources. Many jungle tiles.

BTW, T0 demography screen showed no Mansa in the game. It was a slight relief: our start was slow, but at least far away AIs wouldn't tech and trade like crazy.

The scout moved along the river and revealed more jungle tiles - impossible to put cottage on the jungle before IW . OTOH, all the forests around my coastal capital had potential: chop GLH maybe...?

On T7, the real Mr. The Great Lighthouse showed up:

Well... I guessed it'd be better to give up on GLH and focus on expansion instead . The peaceful neighbour might build GLH for me .

Roose's culture couldn't be seen. There was room for at least 6 cities for me. Looking at all these riverside jungles orz


The start was quite slow. This map offered a good opportunity to leverage cheap EXP workers: my workers had so many jungles to clean

And yes, as shown in the screenshot, the dry wheat was not improved because I skipped Agri . Teching Agri only for a dry wheat didn't look appealing to me. But I would backfill Agri before getting astro, for the potential resource trade with far away AIs. If an AI on another continent was willing to give me fur or sugar for my wheat, that would be a very good deal.

Roosevelt could plot at pleased despite his low unit build prob. To avoid any risk of DoW, I gifted him a city. Luckily he founded Hinduism and Judaism. Got monarchy and alphabet from him. Finally his attitude reached Friendly around 300AD. It would be perfect if I could get currency from him in the next few turns.

Admittedly all these jungle tiles frustrated me deeply. But in 500AD, some far away AIs founding Confu brought my attention back to the religions advisor. I just noticed that the religions were founded quite late. 500AD Confu was really late for emperor (I had seen sometimes 800BC or 600BC Confu). And no one founded Christianity in 500AD .

The wonders were gone quite slow: Roose built oracle and MoM while some unknow AIs got GLH and mids. No one built Parthenon or SoZ. Two GGenerals born in far away land. This probably meant the unknown AIs' land was not rich and they were not very advanced. It would be possible for me to catch up after astronomy .

 

[danjuno]

Haven't peeked into the spoilers yet, but agree with SIP if scout doesn't find anything spectacular. I will say, I am tempted to send the scout 2 SE to check for anything that would make the river more appealing.

 

[konata_LS]

From 500AD to 900AD

Spoiler :

Something too embarrassing to admit in my previous post at #8 : another reason of my slow early development was I lost my first worker to a barb archer . As shown in the statistics, I built 6 workers but only 5 of them still existed. It was another way to leverage EXP trait, as EXP's bonus made losing a worker less brutal and that was why I didn't rage quit

Apart from that poor worker, one chariot, the initial scout, and three warriors were destroyed by the barbarians horde .

Pre-built 2 triremes and upgraded them to caravels after Optics. Got 700AD optics and 780AD astro


One caravel sailed towards west and met Tokugawa. Sold polytheism to Toku for 30 and he immediately was willing to open borders . Another caravel went for the east and found two AIs, Monty and Biz. There were all Buddhist but none of them had CoL, so the AI who founded Confucianism was not among them. The culture map around Monty, Biz, and Toku didn't show any of someone else. I didn't see any city who had confu religion so far. Maybe the confu block was on another landmass...?


TBH, sharing an island with a wonder-spammer was much luckier than being sandwiched between Monty and Toku . Poor Biz got attacked by his brother of the faith Monty [insert Angry Monty's emoji here].


Monty's continent was very backward, because all the three Buddhist AIs skipped currency and went straight for things like HBR or construction-engineering. Monty didn't even have alphabet in 900AD . Considering the far away AIs' situation, the game looked salvageable despite of the pathetic optics date. A cannon attack should still be possible.

 

[antimony]

T54 deity

Spoiler :

Got to three cities and pottery, but the barb situation is still a bit of a mess.

Settled on forest plains hill for T11 worker and then having a grassland hill to mine while waiting for BW. Worker-worker-chop settler, then fishing boats. Settler goes east to share clams and grab pigs. After BW and Fishing, I go for AH and then Pottery (no time for Agriculture and associated discounts sadly). City 3 on the coast to the west to work river with the capital.

Problem with this opening is that you can't fit many warriors so if no horse or copper turns up in first two cities it might be game over to the barbs. Already starting with a scout in the middle of a straight line of coast makes fogbusting difficult. (Now as I type this I wonder if Roosevelt may have built TGW... yes, yes he did.)

Also Roosevelt settled the city to the south right after my city 2. There might be space for 1-2 riverside cities in the SW, but if we're stuck with so little land, I'm not sure what the path to victory can be.

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Civ IV AI, defying my expectations once again .

 

[konata_LS]

@antimony

Spoiler :

Your screenshot makes me realize that I forgot to build a workboat for the other clam of Moscow . The clam remains unimproved in 1500AD .

Spoiler :

Civ IV AI, defying my expectations once again .

Interesting . Why do you say so? I thought you chose a suitable map for the leader, because it's a situation which asks the human players to leverage both EXP and PHI traits to develop their empires and to get optics asap.

In terms of the AIs, I met all the AIs around T170 and have to say you placed one of the nicest AI on our island . If you swapped Roosevelt's start with Monty or Toku, that would be terrible .

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Interesting . Why do you say so? I thought you chose a suitable map for the leader, because it's a situation which asks the human players to leverage both EXP and PHI traits to develop their empires and to get optics asap.

In terms of the AIs, I met all the AIs around T170 and have to say you placed one of the nicest AI on our island . If you swapped Roosevelt's start with Monty or Toku, that would be terrible .

Was not expecting Roosevelt to both settle the jungle in the player's face so quickly and build Great Wall at the same time. Considering I've seen Deity Asoka settle his second city in literally nothing but jungle and build TGW in another NC I probably should have seen this coming, in hindsight, but that's just me treating these NC maps like an art form where you trust the RNG to make things work.

Which, evidently, it did . I have to assume there is at least some pathway to victory, considering I've seen people pull off wins in far worse situations than this. Even if I'm not a skilled enough player to see it myself.

 

[konata_LS]

Spoiler :

but that's just me treating these NC maps like an art form where you trust the RNG to make things work.

Spoiler :

Yes, Deity AIs discount and bonus often make the situation less predictable. Although at any level of the game the AIs have potential to do unexpected things.
In the write-up I'm going to post, you'll see these AIs are becoming weird and wild: Roosevelt beelines Replaceable parts while Tokugawa is the first to Nationalism and builds Taj Mahal .

 

[konata_LS]

From T155 to T243

Spoiler :

Settings as below, no tribal village:


The caravels met SB, who was just on the south of Toku. Monty made peace with Biz but he started plotting again the next turn . SB was also Buddhist but he and Monty still disliked each other. The caravel sailed along SB's coast line and met the last AI, WK. WK founded Confu and was at war with Monty.

Roosevelt had 13 cities and was the most advanced AI, probably because WK was slowed down by the war. After astronomy I was wondering whether I should attack Roosy with Cuirs or Cannons. Surprisingly, Roosy beelined banking for his favourite civic, then he went for Printing press - replaceable parts .

... which meant I had to attack Roosy with cannons .

The far away continent was chaotic: WK bribed Biz to attack Monty


Then WK got himself out of the war, leaving Biz fighting alone against Monty:


Biz couldn't hold against Monty, so Biz dragged Toku in the war as well. At that time Biz and Toku were pleased towards each other due to shared religions

And yes, Tokugawa was the first to Nationalism and built Taj

The far away continent became 1v2, a bad news for Monty but not a bad news for me. Roosevelt couldn't bribe Biz to attack me as long as Biz was stuck in the war with Monty.


Barely got steel and started researching rifling for the war against Roosevelt.


I thought my cannon stack was acceptable until the power graph told me Roosevelt was much stronger than me . His score was almost twice as mine .


Despite of my puny stack, I had to attack now. Roosy already got gunpowder from WK and might tech rifling at any time. Judging from Roosy's tech rate, if I kept waiting, Roosy might get riflemen or even infantry. By contrast, if I attacked him immediately, even he got rifling during the war, at least I could capture some of his core cities, slow down his research, cease fire, and re-declare with my own rifles.

Look at Roosy's capital. Look at all these wonders


When I was at war with Roosevelt, Biz managed to make peace with Monty in 1535AD. Begged 1 from Biz to avoid a potential war bribe.


However, shortly after making peace, Biz adopted Free religion, which ended the pleased attitude from Toku. As a result, Toku closed borders with Biz.


The duel between Toku and Monty became weird and wild, because they couldn't reach each other through land. So both of them just kept pumping out units and stacking near their borders

The war against Roosevelt lasted more than 30 turns. It was tough and long. War weariness soared after I captured 4 or 5 cities. Roosevelt got grenadiers but he made a detour for physics and democracy, which delayed his riflemen. Finally he capitulated on T243, when he was trying to get rifling

And yes, my capital only had 13 population because I always forgot to build a workboat for the second clam

Before I attacked my neighbour, Toku and Monty were at war; after Roosy's capitulation, Toku and Monty are still at war without being able to reach the battlefront through land. How long will these two crazy warmongers stay in this weird war? I don't know.

 

[konata_LS]

From T244 to T320

Spoiler :

Monty and Toku finally made peace around T250. Both of them started plotting again a few turns later, probably because they all built a large stack during the previous weird war. Monty beelined MT and Rifling but he didn't have optics; it seemed his target was Bismarck. WK beelines AL and got the free GGeneral from Fascism. Much to my surprise, Toku was the first to adopt emancipation and he built SoL .


Unlike Monty's rifling beeline, after democracy, Toku went for Biology - Medicine and opened his sushi restaurant

I thought the AIs often prioritized the technology which unlocked their UBs, such as Nappy's astronomy beeline or Darius' Guilds beeline, but Toku preferred Medicine over steam power - AL. Hmm...maybe AI Toku regarded sushi restaurant as one of his unique buildings as well .

Toku attacked SB on T282. Both Toku and SB had rifling and MScience, SB had cannons but Toku brought more units. Their war might be long.


Given that SB kept Toku buzy, I attacked the rest of the AIs on their continent one by one. Seized the dogpile opportunity; Biz capitulated after losing only one city. Monty got rifling but his main stack consisted of knights and maces, maybe because his economy was so bad that he had no to upgrade his troops. WK got AL & rifling but he didn't have too many units, so I just threw my rifles and sieges onto his PRO infantries .

Meanwhile Toku was the first to electricity and built Broadway


Hit musicals were not enough, Toku wanted to become a rock star


It was even more surprising when Toku the wonder-spammer captured 2 cities from SB




Looking at Toku's tech path: "science" flavor pushed him towards radio and medicine, it directed him away from steam power or steel


Toku captured 2 cities from SB but both parties suffered heavy losses; I DoW SB and bribed Toku out of the war with steam power. After SB's capitulation began the final war against Toku. Conquest on T320.


The end game events explained why Roosevelt researched better than WK during the early and mid-game: Roosy had a little island reachable by sailing and he settled two island cities very early. The intercontinental trade routes largely increased Roosy's . BTW, the land shape on the bigger continent reminded me of a donut


Personally I rate this map more difficult than two other semi-iso NC games (NC 289 and NC 310), just because of the terrible jungle land. NC 289 gave us gems and ivory (if the human player settles on Brennus' face), NC 310 had a desert gold, while in this NC all the available -resources needed calendar. Peter's traits are indeed helpful in such circumstances: EXP's cheap workers for cleaning the jungles, bonus to deal with the from jungles, PHI for earlier GScientists and astro bulb. The absence of strong AIs (ex: Sury, Justy, Hannibal...) on the other continent makes the game more playable as well.

Thanks for the map

Spoiler Trivial :

How the AI made use of double golds (facepalm). A city at 4 N of the desert iron would have been nice and close, share the clam & work the gold mines.


The most "brillant" city placement: none of these cities can work the gem mine

 

[LzPrst]

Gave this a spin on DemiGod, realized I'm not quite up to task yet.

Seems I need to work on my planning skills. I also struggle a bit with the early tech game when REX tanks the economy. I cottage and whatnot, but perhaps I'm too greedy and just feel that development is too slow. Are there any good guides for this phase of the game on Immortal+ ?

Base game is mostly ok I think, but looking at how Deity players do it, I realize that having a cohesive plan and making it happen is not my forte. Will post some screens when I get home.

 

[LzPrst]

 

[sampsa]

@LzPrst

Spoiler :

Upon glance: way too many roads, way too small cities, too many mines, too few (worked) cottages. And almost forgot the obvious one: a lot of forest left.