Occupation

[Blackbird_SR-71]

i think if you have overthrown a government the empire should come under occuption not just join your nation but actually be occupied. so in time you could either have it join your country after the resistance is over and all populace turns into your citizens but you can also work to establish another country that is more like a satellite/puppet country that is seperate from you but you still have a range of control on you could use the country as an ally or as a U.N. ally who will vote for you if elections held at U.N.

that would be awesome to do that but what do you think

 

[Lennon]

I have been thinking something along these lines too. Don't have time to go deep into it at the moment, but basically I'm against the fact that the city you capture immediately becomes part of your empire (only problem is resistance, but the borders still just move). The city should only be occupied until peace is negotiated.

Let's say that I am the World Saving Americans. My ally France is attacked by Germany (what's that bell ringing?), who proceed to capture a few French cities, including Paris. Since Paris is only occupied for the time being, the French government is only moved temporarily, but their capital is still Paris. Then I come along and do a little operation I decide to call, er... Overlord or some other cool name and liberate the French cities from Nazi... er... German occupation. When peace is negotiated, the liberated cities now belong to France again (thus not becoming part of my empire for some friggin' reason), with Paris still their capital. If the Germans would have repelled my attack and forced a peace, then they could have incorporated the cities they occupy into German territory.

 

[sir_schwick]

The only problem is there has to be some reason you would cede control back. You would have to distinguish whether you occupation of a city was "Aggressive" or "Liberation". If it was you city originally, then you have no concerns cause it was your soveirgn territory. Aggressive attacks are reason for war and make you a bad guy in general(unless counter attacking). Liberation can only occur when a city did not previously belong to the current owner(any amount of time). Whenever you decide, you hand power bakc over to the former owners. If there were multiple former owners, you decide who, but everyone is watchig, so some will get mad and others glad.

 

[Stid]

i like your idea lennon but i wanted to know what would happen lets say if the player was france and got completely anniliated? would the player just sit there for a few turns until he is liberated/dead completely? or could they stil have a say in events?

 

[Philips beard]

i like your idea lennon but i wanted to know what would happen lets say if the player was france and got completely anniliated? would the player just sit there for a few turns until he is liberated/dead completely? or could they stil have a say in events?

When your civ is completely anniliated it should be possible for you to form an exile government based in a friendly civ. There you could use the rest of your funds, and funds from friendly civs to run a resistance movement to free your country! You would still be able to have diplomatic relations to other civs, and make agreements as an usual country!

 

[Philips beard]

When your civ is totally beaten, you will have a window coming up on your screen saying: "Mr. President, the barbaric mongols have taken all our cities, it's time to seek refuge. The following countries are offering us a safe heaven, until our country again will be free" This message is then followed by a list of nation, and you may choose one of them!

When another Civ is totally crushed, you will have a simular window poping up, asking you if you will offer that nations legal government a safe harbour in your country. By doing it you will severely damage your relations to their occupier, but really strengthen the relations to their old, legal government!

 

[The Omega]

So what you're saying is that to destroy a civ, we have to kill that civ, kill all it's frineds, kill all their friends, until we're the last one standing except for that poor civ that no one really ever liked?

 

[Philips beard]

Well, if some one likes the Civ, it lives on, but in a very reduced manner, of course! All the nazi occupied countries during WW2 had exile governments, like Poland, Norway, the Netherlands etc... It's nothing strange about that!

 

[Stid]

so maybe you should only be given the option of running away to other countries only avaliable before your capital (where parliament is) is taken.then if you do run to another country and their capital is taken you should then die.this gets rid of the prospect of musical chairs between every civ on the game until they're all dead its non irrelevant anyway as i never get killed

 

[wohmongarinf00l]

well, i see several options:
1) nobody is willing to give safe haven to your...err...legal government and therefore u are captured and tried for err... crimes against peace by the err...international community.
2) the nation that gives u safe haven terminates the agreement at some point before u have a chance to get a city going and there goes ur dreams of resurgence. that nation may or may not give u a chance to seek another safe haven. if it doesn't give u a chance, it gets hit with a large rep hit..possibly inability to host a foreign govt for the remainder of the game.

3) ur troops recapture a city which instantly becomes ur capital and the cycle starts
4) a friendly nation gives u a city which instantly becomes ur capital and the cycle starts.


now why would any nation host ur legal govt?

well...that depends on the behavior ascribed to occupied cities. for this to work, occupied cities remain in occupation status for as long as there is
a legal govt. if u are not hosting the legal govt of a city u are occupying, that city cannot grow or produce shield/gold...and u cannot join workers to it.
that's the incentive to kill off the legal govt (perhaps an assassination spy mission can be included just for this)...
if u are hosting the legal govt of a city u are occupying (liberation) then the city can produce shields/gold BUT cannot grow in population in anyway (that means u cannot join workers to it).

downside to hosting:
-the nation that u host gets all the techs u research and sells them on the open market and that's how it survives....or it gets a fraction of ur total income.
-u are hated by the nation that is at war with the exile govt and it may possibly cause war.

effect of legal govt termination:
once a legal govt is terminated, then all occupied cities return to normal...
and start assimilating to the occupier.

what happens if u are hosting an exile govt and u are abt to go to exile urself:
-both of u seek safe haven elsewhere.

-requirement for ability to be given exile status
u must pay an initial sum (no gpt deals here)...all gold at ur last city goes with u (is not "liberated" by the occupier).
u might have a huge army somewhere and ur host might want u to help him fight in a war and therefore u can give a military alliance/mpp as a deal.
for that turn only, the host govt gets to look at ur military plans.

 

[Blackbird_SR-71]

but also i'm saying is that you can setup a new government in the already occupid territory and then use it as a puppet country

 

[Stid]

so if you accept a foreign government theres a chance of you being invaded in exchange for tech or money. it adds risk and makes it interesting. this would also be a valid reason to invade a country attacking you for harbouring a government without daminging your rep sounds like a good idea to me! you should aslo be able to fortify your own troops inside allied cities so if they are invaded, you can help out in some way.

 

[sir_schwick]

You could also turn on foreign leaders you are harbouring, and turn over to the enemy(covertly). I think that exiled leadership should only last for 40 turns or so. It would be long enough that powers coudl try to regain the lost territory, or at least some of it.

Satellite States -
Whenever you conquer new territory, locals will resent being controlled by a foreign power. You will have the option of establishing a Puppet State. This puppet state is a friendly variant of the civ who used to own the territory. This means that the locals will be much happier, and you continue to generate culture and retain the culture you had. Think of the Vichy French during WWII. The master of the satellite state would have military plans each turn, free info on all ciites, and one-way-ROP. Satellite states can eventually try to become independent, but usually needs international support. Master states will usually maintain a military presence. These states also count towards the territory and population requirements of Domination victory.

UN Nation Building -
One function of the UN can be to grant sovergnty back to a civ that no longer maintains soveirgnty. This is civs that were defeated and conquered(not satellites, no surviving governments). Any city that has nationals of the dead civ can be returned to the revived government. A proclomation is drawn up by the 3 to 5 most powerful memebers. less powerful members coudl try to buy votes for certain cities to go one way or the other. Negotiations go on for up to 10 rounds of suggested changes. Whenever the members of the council can unanimously agree on the fate of 80% of the contested cities, the contested cities fates are determined by majority vote. IN the event of further tie, the general assembly votes on the city. Once the document is drawn up, the general assembly votes yea or nay on the proclamation, and the Security Council does not vote here. If it passes, nations have 2 turns to move troops out of the soverign territory of the new nation.
The strategic implications may be to severely weaken an empire(imagine Kurdistan, which would take up 1/3 of Turkey), Create a strategic ally(Israel), or eliminate someone's monopoly on a resource.

 

[Evie]

Governments in exile should only be possible in countries that are ALSO at war with the nation that just killed you ; the government in exile would then die immediately if/when peace was made unless part of the peace deal involved restoring the country that was defeated.

 

[Lennon]

The whole reason you would cede liberated cities back is because it is your ally's cities. Sure you could decide to maintain your own occupation, but only with a huge reputation hit and severly damaged relations with other members of the alliance (if any). If I have an ally who is supplying me with oil from another continent, I obviously wish to protect this ally. If he is under attack from a neighbour, who captures cities from him, I might want to come to his aid (I need that oil after all). I send an expeditionary force over and help him take his cities back (and I really support the idea that you should be able to fortify units in your ally's cities and generally be able to put units on the same tiles as your ally). I then hand control of the cities back to my ally. Why would I want control these myself? The don't have any culture and are potentially easy targets for the aggressive neighbour, causing the problem to re-materialize. Hand back the cities and maybe keep garrisons in allied territory until the threat is gone and you and your ally agree that your troops may go home to their families.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Some thoughts I'd like to add:

1) Resistance and general happiness should be % based, not 'pop-head' based.

2) The happiness of an occupied city depends on what culture group the occupier and occupied belong to, the occupiers current 'reputation, and what government the occupier is currently in (compared to the occupieds preferred and shunned government types)

3) Stationing troops in an occupied cities REDUCES happiness, but allows you to minimize, though not eliminate, the negative impacts of low happiness.

4) Martial Law increases the effectiveness of occupying troops in reducing negative effects of low happiness.

5) The happiness cost of occupation is increased after the occupied civ discovers nationalism.

6) If your nation is on the verge of destruction, you can ask for 'asylum' or 'government in exile' from another civ via the diplomacy screen. If they accept, then your civ lives on in name only, at least.

7) You must renew 'exile' agreements every X turns, otherwise your civ will effectively cease to exist!

8) If one of your former cities is either restored to you, or resistance delivers it back into your hands, then all 'exile' agreements become null and void and your civ is restored to its previous status.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Stid]

if they created this occupation rule in civ4 it would be worth buying just for that! lets hope the important persons are reading this so they can give the people want they want

 

[Shevchenko]

I would say that if you are a goverment on exile,you have an specific time to recorver at least 1 city, and if that city and conquered you are eliminated from the game,and lets say you are being conquered and ask from to govern from an other country but you dont have money or anything to pay, if the other civ acceps you can pay went you have more cities if not that will cause war with the other civ and big reputatiion loss.