Of Mongols and Slavs

[GeZe]

No, I didn't Bulgarians is a Slavicized Turkic tribe, that's why I decided not to include them in the list.

?By turkic do you mean the Bulgars? Bulgarains are half Slavs half Bulgars. The Bulgars came out of central asia and were the founders of Volga Bulgaria and Great Bulgaria (these two taking up the area of European Russia), as well as Bulgaria. Also, they founded around 3-4 other stats now extinct in South Italy, India, and somewhere around modern day hungry.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

Don't forget the also mass-produced Katyusha I guess the Russians were the only nation during WW2 to use rocket launchers on mass scale, often replacing conventional artillery with them. So that makes Katyushas distinctive enough to be candidates for UU (should replace Artillery ).

Better not, Katyushas was effective but not as vital and important as T-34. WWII time was tank time so tank-like UU's should be empathised to fit background.

 

[rhialto]

I dunno. I think the fact that the ww2 production of T-34 outstripped the ww2 production of all German tanks of all makes and models put together is quite a rekarkable eat. Certainly the best way to mdel that would be to leave the stats alone and just make it cheaper to build. It's also the single most heavily produced tank so far.

As for cossacks, it's worth noting that the Polish army for a time called all its soldiers that, regardless of ethnicity. Kind of like how the British army lets ethnic English and Scottish soldiers into the "Welsh Dragoon Guards". But hussar sounds just as good if it causes less arguments.

 

[Ded Moroz]

Originally Posted by rhialto
Personally, I'd pick Russia and Poland-Lithuania as the two most prominent slavic civs.

If we lack european civ's in the game - then yes, let's include some more: Vikings, Dutch and may be after them Poland.
But right now the situation is opposite. It obviosly looks like Europe is overrepresented in 18 civs list. So Slavs seem to me good idea as a single civ representing all people who speak Slavic languagues.

Originally Posted by RCL
No, I didn't Bulgarians is a Slavicized Turkic tribe, that's why I decided not to include them in the list.

The same way you may call Tzechs a Slavicized German tribe, but they will not stop being Slavs after that.

 

[rhialto]

@ded moroz

Sorry, but having a civ called "slavs" is akin to having a civ called "latins". It only makes sense to social scientists who need artifical terms to group disparate peoples. If we have only one slavic civ, call it the Russians.

 

[RCL]

It obviosly looks like Europe is overrepresented in 18 civs list.

Europe is not overrepresented IMO Europe as a region and culture is crucial for the mankind. Notice that civilizations other than European do not have that will to revolutionize the world, they are rather conservative. Until recently, China was basically the same as 4000 years ago (very much like Japan was before its westernization), Islam countries are still stuck in Medieval, Africa is still in tribalism, I bet that numerous native tribes in America and Siberia would not progress either (so instead of USA there would be Africa No. 2).

Thus, it is natural that we should pay tribute to civilizations that managed to spread their culture over the entire globe (what language do we speak here ? )

The same way you may call Tzechs a Slavicized German tribe, but they will not stop being Slavs after that.

Read the wikipedia

In the early history of the Slavs, and continuing into the Dark Ages, non-Slavic groups were sometimes assimilated by Slavic-speaking populations: the Bulgars became Slavicized and their Turkic tongue disappeared; in other cases, Slavs themselves were assimilated into other groups such as the Romanians, Magyars, Greeks, etc. The Croats and the Serbs were probably merged Alans and/or Illyrians.

Czechs are Slavic people that were dominated by Germans (during the last few hundred years only, don't forget that medieval Bohemia was a major player in Eastern Europe), but they are not of Germanic origin.

 

[Crayton]

China under the Han dynasty was as prominent as the Roman Empire and China under the Ming dynasty was the greatest civilization in the world!
Mali, which is both Muslim and African, was also home to the greatest educational school in the world.

True, Europe spread its culture and technology across the world during both periods of imperialism but remember the following. The Arabs spread a unifying religion that even today defines the Middle East. The Mongols spread cultural and political unity across the entirety of Asia. The Swahili spread their language to all sides of the Indian Ocean. The Slavs are the major body of the Orthodox Christian belief and have recently been bonded within the USSR. The Jews even facilitated Mediterranean trade from the rise of Islam until the European Renaissance.

Europe has influenced much of modern history but remember: to over-represent the continent is to under-represent the rest of humanity. Personally, I'd choose an Ethipoia-Swahili civilization before I'd choose a Poland-Lithuanian civilization.

 

[RCL]

The Slavs are the major body of the Orthodox Christian belief and have recently been bonded within the USSR.

Well, the Slavs are Europeans, too. From all the Slavic countries, only Russia has part of its territory situated in Asia (and still, it's not the native land of Russians).

About other civilizations: agreed about China and Arabs (btw, "the Arabs" is also a loose term), but I don't really agree with Mali and whatever that Swahili civ is called. They could be local powers of course, but, forgive my ignorance, what is left after those civilizations that is worth remembering? Are they widely known now?

 

[Crayton]

True. the Mali and the Swahili are far from great now. The people still exist and the great buildings that demarcated their prominence still exist but their power is now only local.

On the other hand the same can be said of the Aztecs. What we know about them are also based on histories written by outsiders (Spanish in this case). The people and the buildings are still around but the Aztecs are a relatively local power today.

The difference is that the histories of the Mali and Swahili were written by Muslim scholars. These histories have only recently (c.1922) been translated into English, German, and other Western languages.

I'm assuming you, like me, have read mostly history written by Western authors; but, the atestment of power is evident in history. You just have to seek it out.

Edit: And the Arabs are those people that saddled up and conquered territory from the Frankish kingdom to the Chinese Empire. During which, they created an Empire unified by Islam.

 

[Kyriakos]

I am wondering how many highschool bullies played their role in a modern person's understanding of the mongol empire, or even the east-west conflict.

Today's society seams to be as different from an age when global history could be interesting, as a civ3 map is different when it is full of fog of war, and then when you have explored it all Perhaps we shouldnt employ many ghosts of warriors of the past in a bodyguard which would escort us in the modern, cemented, boring pavements.

 

[Ded Moroz]

Originally Posted by RCL
Czechs are Slavic people that were dominated by Germans (during the last few hundred years only, don't forget that medieval Bohemia was a major player in Eastern Europe)

As far as I know Bohemians were a Germanic tribe, who merged with Slavic tribe of Moravians into Bohemian kingdom and later assimilated into them.
Mutual assismilation of tribes was a normal process and what matters is the final result - whom they became - and not whom they originally were.

 

[Ded Moroz]

Originally posted by Rhialto
Sorry, but having a civ called "slavs" is akin to having a civ called "latins"

I don't mind if there would be civs called "latins" or "South American indians" or "Native Africans" or "Arabs" or "Normans". I guess few people imagine just only Russians when they play Russian civ. Instead they use city names such as Minsk, Kiev, Riga, Tbilisi and consider that natural because they imagine somewhat wider social range then only pure Russians.
In some other thread I even suggested that civ names could be changed automatically or by players choice within the process of the game. Say you start playing a civ called Slavs and later you have a choice to rename it into Rusj or, say Poland-Lithuania or Bohemia and even later respectively Rusj into Russia, Ukraine or Belorussia Poland-Lithuania into Poland or Lithuania (don't tell me they are not Slavs, i don't insist on names) and Bohemia into Tzchecia or Slovakia. It is still a little bit unnatural schemes and has many setbacks, but may be some people will like it....

 

[rhialto]

Well, you might not mind, but I can guarantee you that the majoity of the game-buying public would be turned off by it.

 

[RCL]

As far as I know Bohemians were a Germanic tribe, who merged with Slavic tribe of Moravians into Bohemian kingdom and later assimilated into them.
Mutual assismilation of tribes was a normal process and what matters is the final result - whom they became - and not whom they originally were.

Call me stubborn, but I want clarity in this case Sorry, but you are mistaken.

History of Bohemia

Roman authors provide the first clear reference to this area as Boiohaemum, which is Germanic for "the home of the Boii", who were a Celtic people. As part of the territory often crossed during the major Germanic and Slavic migrations, the area was settled from the 1st century BC by Germanic (probably Suebic) peoples including the Marcomanni. After their migration to the south-west, they were replaced around the 6th century by the Slavic precursors of today's Czechs.

 

[arcbulgar(bg)]

Well my opinion about the slavs is this.They were organized by the bulgars in the balkans and by a viking tribe in russia.And they absorebed the bulgar administration.THe proof is the name of their nobles.BOYARD is the noble of the bulgars in great bulgaria which existed before any slavic country.So their first states were organized by foreiners so the slavic traditions is not that slavic in my opinion.

 

[Crayton]

Wow! I never thought about the Boyars being Bulgar.

On the other hand you also have caesars, czars, kaisers, and kings. Having nobility named after the nobility of late-great civilizations obviously doesn't preclude them from being called a Civilization.

That is a strong point for a Bulgar civilization nonetheless.

 

[RCL]

Well my opinion about the slavs is this.They were organized by the bulgars in the balkans and by a viking tribe in russia.And they absorebed the bulgar administration.THe proof is the name of their nobles.BOYARD is the noble of the bulgars in great bulgaria which existed before any slavic country.So their first states were organized by foreiners so the slavic traditions is not that slavic in my opinion.

A lot of Russian nobility titles come from other nations: for example, Tsar (Czar) is old Russian for Caesar, Knyaz is for Konung (basically, the same etimology as King). However, the situation was more or less the same as with today's Presidents - also a foreign word in Russian. There were just certain titles that were popular among that culture group and as such were used by all rulers. (As for Boyars, that word has Romanian origin, not Bulgarian one).

As for Bulgar supremacy idea that you are promoting, there's simple argument that you can't beat:

it were Bulgars who got assimilated by Slavs, lost their language (only ~20 words from original Bulgar language are left in modern Bulgarian) and got converted to Eastern Orthodox church with Church-Slavonic language used for liturgies.

Read Bulgarian history on wikipedia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bulgaria].
Your 'absorbed by Bulgar administration' statement is totally wrong.

The Bulgars were greatly outnumbered by the Slav population among whom they had settled. Between the 7th and the 10th centuries, the Bulgars were gradually absorbed by the Slavs, adopting a South Slav language and converting to Christianity (of the Byzantine rite) under Boris I in 864.

EDIT: you are lucky that in Latin alphabet letter B is read that way like it's now, so we have Bulgaria. According to contemporary Greek and Cyrillic alphabets, letter B was read like V (e.g. emperor Basil II 'Voulgaroktonos', that is, "Bulgar-slayer"), and of course Vulgaria sounds a lot worse

 

[arcbulgar(bg)]

Why should read this crapy site.whiy don`t you read this for example

http://www.atia.com/grigor/bul_hist.html

I red what was writen there and it was to little and not acurate.Half of the words in the modern languge are bulgar ones.And that is prooven by many specialists.The title boyard is bulgar and is older than the roman empier.The title of the bulgars is khan.The title TZAR is in fact coming from roman title cesar but that was given by the roman emperor(greek) to the victorios Khan Simeon who made the emperor crow for merce.

 

[RCL]

Why should read this crapy site.whiy don`t you read this for example

http://www.atia.com/grigor/bul_hist.html

I red what was writen there and it was to little and not acurate.Half of the words in the modern languge are bulgar ones.And that is prooven by many specialists.The title boyard is bulgar and is older than the roman empier.The title of the bulgars is khan.The title TZAR is in fact coming from roman title cesar but that was given by the roman emperor(greek) to the victorios Khan Simeon who made the emperor crow for merce.

Sorry, but I prefer "crappy" wikipedia over that nationalist site with poor English.

Besides, you probably didn't read that yourself. Here what it tells about Cyrillic alphabet, which as you claim is based on Bulgarian runes.

After 885 three scholars of the slav brothers Kiril and Metodii arrived in Bulgaria and started to learn the bulgarians their new created alphabet.

 

[arcbulgar(bg)]

yes but they don`t sey anything about the alphabet itself.And do you know that when the roman emperor gives the assiment of creatin a "slavic" aphabet they were near the finish of crating it.So think who can have given them the job than.Someone who neads it to protect his country from the greek church.And that is no other than Knan Boris 1.