offices in the new game

[disorganizer]

right. but i think we should try to give them some more powers.

having more powers in mayors will increase their powers and also make bigger provinces possible.

but they also will need official approval cause they earn a) gpt and b) land-tiles with the rpg part of the game. i would rather not like to see such a pricy position being just declare by someone himself

 

[Shaitan]

But why not? The major aspect is the rpg thing. That's roll playing. Let the people define their rolls as they will. There will be way more cities than players after a very short time so getting a mayoral spot will not be a problem for anybody who wishes to have one. Maybe this should be defined in the context of the rpg game, not in the demo rules.

 

[disorganizer]

which sense does it make to have 2 rulesets? the rpg aspects will always influence the game aspects.

you tell someone to shove off because the constitution gives you the right to do this and that.
now the other one sais: hey, but the rpg rules allow me to to that! so you shove off yourself!
whats the point in this?

a good example (not directly fitting, but in the sense): i was told to shut up because trying to get my build queues thru was not my right because "i was not elected"... so whats the point in having people involved in the game and finally IDENTIFYING with a character in the game when they are blocked by some elected person getting to his position cause there was no other nominee?
well, thats not exactly how the game should work at all.

the game should be fun and not a fight between institutions. and finally, people should influence the game in their will, and not give this power to some few elected persons.

a decentralized governmental approach with veto rights when going up the chain will maybe be the best one (meaning mayors with queue and mood input, filtered and summarized by governors)

 

[Shaitan]

Every level of government that you add requires more time to function correctly. What does the governor do when he doesn't get a build queue from a mayor? How long should he wait for the build queue?

 

[Eklektikos]

The way I see it, all these RPG related matters should be optional and not be integrated into the core demogame ruleset. If you want a province to be run along the lines you've set out, then take it up with the governor. If he/she doesn't want to govern that way then that's their prerogative, but you can then campaign for a more RPG/mayor-friendly candidate in the next election. In this way we could have different provinces adopting different styles of local governance, which seems to me to be far more interesting and fun than enforcing one local system nationwide. It also doesn't take the power out of being a governor since they can choose or design a system that suits them. You could even create provincial constitutions which contain the rules for local government in that province, provided of course it doesn't contradict the main national constitution. In my opinion this is far more decentralised than using one single RPG local government ruleset for all provinces.

 

[disorganizer]

elek: no rulebase for provincial rules. a governor setting them up will surely soon face a pi (hey, i set out a poll in my city and get sued for it ;-)).

but to get serious:
i think some things should be there, like the officialization of appointed positions. this not only in the rpg lead to some counter voices against mayors proposals with the argument of "you are not elected, i am", which is silly.
i think we will need a kind of official non-governmental positions with approval of the government so noone is there to just proclaim something and no rule will be there against it.

 

[Octavian X]

I think that our current system works well. I haven't heard anyone complain, "Oh, hey, I'm wanna be mayor here!" or,"I'm gonna lead this group, not you!" As they say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

 

[disorganizer]

Well, i was told to shove off when requesting build queues for delphi when civinator was lost.
And maybe thats why we have so few mayors for our cities which dont own any other position?
You should not forget there are many people who just dont state their opinion in the forum in text, and so we will have to give them possibility to state their opinion by vote.

 

[disorganizer]

btw:
i wonder if it is against the constitution if a mayor puts up a queue request and the governor just denies it.
after all, they have to act in the will of citizenry.
if a governor is considered a leader and 2 citizens request a build queue to be posted for poll, does he have to put it up for poll like a leader does? if no, then we should refine his powers as this is just too much power to decide for a province without citizens even having a chance to take influence.

maybe this is also the reason for so few people pariticpating in the city and province threads, as there is no sense in participating in there without having a thing to say about the topic because the governor can just decide as he wants? i dont know.

 

[Octavian X]

You do have a point. If the governor ignores them outright, we have a problem. If he gives a good reason, or if the suggestion is just plain bad, or if something more important arises, it's ok. For example, a proposed build queue could contain various improvements, but if a war starts, the governor has a right to switch it to build military units.

 

[disorganizer]

But he should state why. Well, i must admit this rarely happens, but it did.
I just see this could happen more often in future. If the major is no bullhead then, he will maybe give up on the game and we will loose these positions totally.
As they are very important to give the game a flavor, i think giving them a bit more responsibility and power is ok.

My proposal (again) looks like having mayors govern 2-3 cities and governors having veto rights over 5-6 counties.
Veto right here must of course include stating why a veto was done. The domestic leader then will have veto right over the provinces.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by disorganizer
btw:
i wonder if it is against the constitution if a mayor puts up a queue request and the governor just denies it.
after all, they have to act in the will of citizenry.
if a governor is considered a leader and 2 citizens request a build queue to be posted for poll, does he have to put it up for poll like a leader does? if no, then we should refine his powers as this is just too much power to decide for a province without citizens even having a chance to take influence.

Yes, this is how the rules were set up. A governor, like any other leader, is not permitted to ignore his constituents. This was why you were shouted down, dis. You were trying to dictate the build queue instead of following the legal method.

 

[disorganizer]

No. It was an urgent issue and no shouting down of ANY citizen opinion should take place anywhere in our nation. And im a citizen and so my opinion should count, even if im a mayor.

At the moment, the belief comes up in me that we over-beurocratized this nation to the effect that decissions can not be taken within a 1 week period.
With our 3 day chat interval this will be awful at the beginning of the new game if it does not improove.

btw:
did you notice almost no in game thing were polled at in the last few terms? this is rediculous. especially when im shouted at and called dictator when i try to put build queues thru by people not even elected in their job due to lack of competition.


i again must come back to the game basics:
the sense of this game is to get citizens to decide not to get citizens to elect people to decide for them.

 

[disorganizer]

other offices i forgot:
embassies!

they should have link in the foreign department 1st post. the embassadors are appointed by foreign department.

 

[Octavian X]

We only have one embassy. There is no need to create another office to do that.

 

[disorganizer]

Well, if you see the office IS the embassy. See 1st post. Every embassy will act like an office and the embassador is handled like the office head and the attachees like helpers/deputies. Just that their thread is on foreign terrain.

Maybe in future we will have more embassies, who knows?
I could imgaine establishing an embassy with the cfc civ2 demogame and the apo civ2 demogame for example. Colateral communication is the key to world peace.

 

[chiefpaco]

How about a "web site" office? It might be a lot of work, but would be so handy for this game.

 

[disorganizer]

if we get the site, the office can be opened. not from the beginning though... the presidents office could for example open it.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by disorganizer
btw:
i wonder if it is against the constitution if a mayor puts up a queue request and the governor just denies it.
after all, they have to act in the will of citizenry.
if a governor is considered a leader and 2 citizens request a build queue to be posted for poll, does he have to put it up for poll like a leader does?

You need to remember that a Mayor, by him or herself, is NOT the definition of the "will of the people". It is one person, just like the Governor themselves, who is also "people" and an elected "people" at that.

Now if 2 or more citizens are against the Governor, then the official should show proper responsiveness, which may include discussions and polling, but understand again that they may disagree with that small group, and that isn't necessarily against the will of the people either depending on the situation.

The only time we truely test the will of the people is when a quorum is reached in a polled issue, or on the rare occassion that a lively discussion thread is unanimous.

Everything else is just guess work, or outright propaganda by folks on both sides seeking to advance an agenda that is not proven to be shared by the people.

 

[disorganizer]

if 2 people want the governor to poll something, he is FORCED to do so by the constitution.
if 2 people want a build queue to be changed, he can comply and otherwise he MUST put it to poll.