1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

OFFICIAL DISCUSSION: City Naming Convention

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Demo Game V: Citizens' started by Chieftess, Jan 26, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,676
    Location:
    mostly lurking
    There are 2 basic problems:
    1. Citizen Registry is not fair as people who are not active get a city named that they never see or care about. Its also not fair to latecomers who are very active.
    2. Using Rank or Elected positions is not fair as some people are active but cannot hold an elected office (possibly due to several reasons, including not owning C3C).

    I think the Citizen Registry is a good method for determining rough order. So how do we remove people that are not really playing the game?

    How about this?

    Citizen Registry determines the order. The next 10-15 cities have names proposed at any one time. Whenever the city name list has less then 15 items the next person on the Citizen Registry is informed via PM and a post in the City Name Thread that they can now propose a city name. If they fail to post a City name within 1 week then the next citizen is informed. The citizen is allowed to post a proposed name even after the week goes by, but they are placed at the end of the current proposed list.
     
  2. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    ok, what about this solution:

    We part the citizen registry into increments of 20 cities, grouped in 4 groups of 5 cities.
    We then poll these against each other as a series of five names to be founded.
    Then the citizens are free to vote for the series they like the best for the next five cities. In the next phase, we take cities 21-40 and does the same. This will allow all citizens to be eligible for naming a city throughout the game. The people can also call in motions to rename cities with a 60 % majority. This opens for removing freeriders and gross misconduct players epitaph from the city naming. When this polled is once called and a new name placed, the city can never be renamed again.
     
  3. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,281
    Location:
    Gateway to the West
    Alternate option - as we create cities, we open up nominations for the city name. Everyone votes. Once your suggestions for a city name is used, you can't suggest any further names. We maintain a list (in one post) of the city names, and who suggested them.

    The process is open to everyone, it's fairly straightforward and results in popular city names.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  4. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    excellent proposal Ravensfire, and the citynamer then forfeits the chance to nominate a new city name until the list is cycled through. Certainly, early cities will get more attention than later cities, as the core is always more attractive than the frontier.
     
  5. Donovan Zoi

    Donovan Zoi The Return

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2002
    Messages:
    4,960
    Location:
    Chicago
    Here's the post Ashburnham was talking about in its entirety. And if elected Chairman of the City Naming Office (if we go that route), this is the method I would use.

    @Cyc - the purpose of this method is not to foster "elitism," but to ensure that cities get named by those who are engaged in the game. There were far too many examples in DG5 of people choosing a name in the Citizens Registry and then leaving.

     
  6. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    There only seem to be two major options, use the order in the registry, or give priority to elected officials.

    There is nothing psychologically wrong with the alternatives which have been suggested to use polling in some fashion. They would put the choice of who gets to name cities in the people's hands, which on the surface would be a good thing. There is the minor problem of it being more a popularity contest than anything else, which is offset by the high probability of creative and unique names, at least at the beginning.

    The potentially fatal flaw for the suggested poll based processes is that they are not simple. This is something we're going to have to do a bunch of times, and it will come out to be a sizeable percentage of all the demogame activity, when you toss in all the tied polls and runoffs. Overhead is something to be avoided, unless there is a big gain from that overhead.
     
  7. Black_Hole

    Black_Hole Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2004
    Messages:
    3,424
    currently I would prefer either DZ's method or sticking to the registry, polling and stuff like that is too complicated as DS said...
     
  8. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    Well, is is not really hard work, The hard work comes when the unfair generates lengthy trials. Simply poll 4 lists of 5 cities each in the 20 first citizens, then make the President call the winner in case of a tie. No run-off polls, and every single part of the registry will be tried. This will hardly generate much work, as organizing 4x5 city names at a time in a poll is hardly any work. I see a lot of work on the strangest things in these forums, so nothing should stop us from setting up simple one choice polls with lists of five cities at a time. This is the only way to cover the entire registry.

    I suggest we poll 3 citizen registry variations versus 3 rank-based variations.
     
  9. Ashburnham

    Ashburnham King

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    Messages:
    827
    The problem with this is that, if every name is subject to a poll, no one gets to add their "unique" name to the nation's cities. I would rather have every citizen get to name a city themselves-- however we do it-- than have every name subject to a poll. In my view, this would only serve to homogenize the city names in one of the few areas where citizens get to imprint their unique mark. Having city names based on rank seems far more helpful (and entertaining) than forcing everyone to vote on every single possible city name.
     
  10. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2002
    Messages:
    24,160
    Location:
    Baltimore
    Plus, that's too much polling. People get tired of that.
     
  11. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    This is exactly why we should poll series of 5 cities at a time. This will mean two city naming polls in a month. Is that too much work ? Not more work than handling all the mishaps originating from a poor system or very poor implementers.
     
  12. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    Let's see if I understand your proposal. I'll try to write a process and we'll see if it matches what you're trying to say.

    1. A city name nomination thread is opened.
    2. People put their preferred city name into the list.
    3. After some time passes, a poll is started using the names which were submitted.
    4. The citites getting the top 5 votes are the next 5 to use, in order
    5. Someone makes sure the 5 winners never get to pick another name

    Is this right? How is it better than either of the traditional systems of just following registry order, or using priority? How do you keep the step in bold from being just as bad if not worse than what we already had?

    There was another possible interpretation.
    1. Citizens register
    2. Poll the 1st 5 vs the 2nd 5. This decides which block of the list we use first
    3. When those are used, poll the 2 highest remaining blocks of 5 again

    Again, is this right? How would it be better -- what are the advantages?

    I can be convinced another system will work, but you'll need to do a little more persuasion. Tell us more detail, and what specifically makes it better. We have a former mod with a history of being very well organized volunteering to run it, so don't rely on an argument which assumes incompetence.
     
  13. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Messages:
    14,736
    Location:
    Behind you
    I am actually amazed that no one has seen the merit in Provo's solution, especially someone as smart as you DS. It really is a simple solution that uses the CR and enables a system that will include citizens that register early and those that register very late.

    Let's say we open up the CR now and 20 people register right away. Then just before we vote for the first cities, the CR expands to 40 registered citizens. The last twenty of the 40 will have to wait a long, long time (if they get a chance to choose at all) to name a city - by the old way...

    If we go with the notion that approximately 10 cities will be established in the first Term, then we follow Provo's plan to the letter. We take the first 20 names from the CR and separate chronologically into groups of 5, each group forming its own poll. The winner of each poll gets heir name on the first of our cities. The first group of five in the CR would be poll number 1 and its winner would name our first city. The second group of 5 names in the CR would be poll number 2 and the winner of that poll would name the second city. From these 4 polls, based on the first 20 citizens to register, we get our first four city names.

    Then we go to the next twenty names on the list and repeat. People will say, "Holy cow! I signed up #38 and I get to name the 8th city??? This is great!"

    Now, as far as your question about the bolded step, that's easy. The person in charge of the naming commission would make a list and everytime someone won a poll, their name would be removed from elidgibilty for future polls. Poll example:

    Vahalla - John
    Chicago - Jane
    Avalon - Joe
    Miami - Jen
    Shangri-La - Julie

    You'd vote for your most likable city name (or perhaps in this popularity driven game, you most likeable person), and the winner of that poll would be used to name a city.

    Once we go through all the names, the head of the CNC would put together new polls excluding the names of people that have already named a city. But by then, the CR may have grown to 60 names, or 80 names. SD3 or MOTH or Ravensfire, who may all sign up late might get to name the 15th or 18th city. This is a totally fair system for people that sign up late, it uses the CR for priority, and it's not based on your ability to be elected. :)
     
  14. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    Thanks, Cyc. That was probably the clarification I was looking for, and you can see that both of my ideas about what Provolution was talking about were wrong, if yours is right.

    I understand the idea as Cyc presented it, and agree that it meshes with the point of view that citizens should be treated equally with respect to city naming, eliminating any preference due to either willingness / availablility to hold an office or due to being lucky to join the game first. I don't agree with that position, but respect it as a valid point of view.

    Arguing the actual point of contention back the other way, what about the rights of those who are with us from the beginning, and/or take the initiative to get elected? Why should they be punished for choosing an unpopular city name, or for being less creative than the newest member in the registry? Has not their dedication to the game been worthy of honor?

    You might say, yes but these are veteran players who have named cities countless times before, let's honor the newcomers. My response would be, let's find a way to balance our goals.

    How about this as yet another alternative, for completeness. What if we use the leader priority method as the base method, but pick every 4th city name from the then-current bottom of the citizen registry, or pick every 4th name by walking through the list and polling sets of 5?
     
  15. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Messages:
    14,736
    Location:
    Behind you
    That's our main contention point DS. You ask, "what about the rights of those who are with us from the beginning, and/or take the initiative to get elected?" I say they have just as many rights as anyone else. It's you who want to give them special rights over the people who can't get elected. EVERYONE has the same right to name a city. If you have the inclination and the popularity to win an election, that should be reward enough. Do we have to pay you more perks to hold office? I think not.

    I really don't think in those terms, DS. I'm not worried about how many notches you or I have on our guns. I'm talking about equality for every citizen regardless of their political prowess in popularity contests.

    I think now you're going to the extreme. I don't care for this formula as it still rewards eliteism. If we give the Leaders first crack at naming cities JUST because the won their elections, I can probably tell you who will be naming the first twenty cities. How boring is that?
     
  16. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    I think it is extremely straight forward, and attempts to dilute the proposal I assume stems from political interests.

    1. Citizen Registry list (CRL) is formed
    2. CRL is broken into 5 city segments 1-5 (A), 6-10 (B), 11-15 (C) 16-20 (D).
    3. Prior to the game or prior to the establisment of city 4, 9, 14 and 19, a new list of four segments is polled (Polling A-D (1-20), E-H (21-40) in Term One for the first 10 cities. This means we poll Four Lists of 5 Cities against each other.

    The problem is with the leaders getting their will through. For that reason we can give the naming of landmarks in sequence of the government standards. Rivers must be fully mapped to give a name, oceans so and so many water tiles, deserts, forests and so on. So, give the cities to the citizens, and the landmarks to the leading empire builders. When the list is cycled, omit the winner, regroup in fives, and start over again.
     
  17. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2002
    Messages:
    24,160
    Location:
    Baltimore
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page