OFFICIAL Doughnut Embassy

[fe3333au]

And with Peter_Grimes' changes

To Team Doughnuts

Thank you for meeting with us, however we felt that your idea of a good deal was not only somewhat one-sided, but totally situated in the realms of fiction. Your diplomatic team totally over estimated the values of your technologies and dramatically under estimated ours ...

I attach an easy to read table of Relative Values for Technologies ... please read thoroughly to understand our point of view.

We welcome peace between our two great peoples ... But peace does not mean that trade must be one-sided ... Trade, like peace, must be mutually beneficial ...

We await your next proposal ... and in future require discussion points posted at least 24 hours prior to chat meetings ... and also that diplomats have limited agreement powers where discussions wildly divert from the agenda, these must be brought back so that all MIA citizens can comment.

Your team should now be aware of what we can trade ... and where we stand.

1. We require Pottery (which we can smartly research with little time wasted)
2. We require Writing ...

and can offer the following
>Ceremonial Burial
>Bronze Working
>Iron Working
>Warrior Code
>Wheel

In good faith and friendship and also to dispel any awkwardness that may exist due to the last meeting, MIA would like to enclose a gift from MIA to show that we are an honourable peoples ... a flag ... as we notice that you have none posted on the UN team thread

Regards

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA

 

[ybbor]

don't forget to offer my help in editing the flag.

 

[fe3333au]

Added the ybbor assistance with Flag wording ... I'm personally very happy with all the extras already incorporated in the design

To Team Doughnuts

Thank you for meeting with us, however we felt that your idea of a good deal was not only somewhat one-sided, but totally situated in the realms of fiction. Your diplomatic team totally over estimated the values of your technologies and dramatically under estimated ours ...

I attach an easy to read table of Relative Values for Technologies ... please read thoroughly to understand our point of view.

We welcome peace between our two great peoples ... But peace does not mean that trade must be one-sided ... Trade, like peace, must be mutually beneficial ...

We await your next proposal ... and in future require discussion points posted at least 24 hours prior to chat meetings ... and also that diplomats have limited agreement powers where discussions wildly divert from the agenda, these must be brought back so that all MIA citizens can comment.

Your team should now be aware of what we can trade ... and where we stand.

1. We require Pottery (which we can smartly research with little time wasted)
2. We require Writing ...

and can offer the following
>Ceremonial Burial
>Bronze Working
>Iron Working
>Warrior Code
>Wheel

In good faith and friendship and also to dispel any awkwardness that may exist due to the last meeting, MIA would like to enclose a gift from MIA to show that we are an honourable peoples ... a flag ... as we notice that you have none posted on the UN team thread ... our team's artist will be happy to add any written information to the image that you may wish ...

Regards

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA

Not sure if you want to be accreditted ...

most visual artists in RL get mortally offended if they are not ... so if you want just give post and I will change

 

[ybbor]

Added the ybbor assistance with Flag wording ... I'm personally very happy with all the extras already incorporated in the design



Not sure if you want to be accreditted ...

most visual artists in RL get mortally offended if they are not ... so if you want just give post and I will change

whatever. this is fine, my signiture is good enough for me

 

[Chamnix]

I would still like to see more details about Pottery - specifically, we will have it within 5 turns regardless, and they are not speeding up our growth at all if we trade - our granary will be done at exactly the same time either way. The only thing that happens is we are saved the 60 beakers of researching it, and they are saved the 90 beakers of researching a more expensive tech.

 

[fe3333au]

More information about Pottery ... I am not sure if I want to tell them how quick we can research ... but am open to more discussion on that facet ... also upped the agro setting ... see spoiler title and deal wording

To Team Doughnuts

Thank you for meeting with us, however we felt that your idea of a good deal was not only somewhat one-sided, but totally situated in the realms of fiction. Your diplomatic team totally over estimated the values of your technologies and dramatically under estimated ours ...

I attach below an easy to read table of Relative Values for Technologies ... please read thoroughly to understand our point of view.

Spoiler Tech Values 101 :

Ancient Ages
Pottery - 2, Ceremonial Burial - 2, Bronze Working - 3, WarriorCode - 3,
Masonry - 4, Mysticism - 4, The Wheel - 4, Alphabet - 5, Horseback Riding - 5
Iron Working - 6, Philosophy - 6, Mathematics - 8 Writing - 8, Code of Laws -
10, Literature - 10*, Map Making - 12, Polytheism - 12, Currency - 16,
Construction - 20, Monarchy - 24*, Republic - 28*.

Middle Ages
Chivalry - 32*, Feudalism - 32, Engineering - 36, Monotheism - 36, Printing
Press - 368, Music Theory - 40*, Theology - 40, Education - 44 Invention -
44, Gunpowder - 48, Banking - 52, Free Artistry - 52*, Astronomy - 56,
Navigation - 56*, Economics - 56*, Chemistry - 60, Metallurgy - 64,
Military Tradition - 64*, Physics - 64, Democracy - 68*, Magnetism - 68,
Theory of Gravity - 68.

Industrial Ages
Espionage - 90*, Sanitation - 90*, Ironclads - 100*, Medicine - 100,
Scientific Method - 100, The Corporation - 100, Amphibious Warfare - 120*,
Communism - 120*, Industrialization - 120, Nationalism - 120*, Steam Power
- 120, Fascism - 130*, Electricity - 140, Mass Production - 140, Motorized
Transportation - 140, Replaceable Parts - 140, Steel - 140, Combustion - 160,
Refining - 160, Advanced Flight - 180*, Electronics - 180, Flight - 180,
Atomic Theory - 200.

Modern Age
Recycling - 240, Rocketry - 240, Computers - 260, Ecology - 260, Satellites -
260, Fission - 280, Nuclear Power - 280, Synthetic Fibers - 280, Smart
Weapons - 280, TheLasers - 280, Space Flight - 300, Stealth - 300,
Superconductor - 300, Genetics - 320, Minituration - 320, Robotics - 320
IntergratedDefense - 360.
* = Optional Tech

We welcome peace between our two great peoples ... But peace does not mean that trade must be one-sided ... Trade, like peace, must be mutually beneficial ...

We await your next proposal ... and in future require discussion points posted at least 24 hours prior to chat meetings ... and also to avoid frustration and time wastage you should be aware that diplomats have limited agreement powers where discussions wildly divert from the agenda, and all such options must be brought back to MIA where citizens can comment.

Your team should now be aware of what we can trade ... and where we stand.

1. We would like Pottery ... which we can smartly research very swiftly and will do nothing to increase our poulation growth in the short term ... A trade for Pottery with you will only save us 60 beakers of research time and in return you can save upto 90 beakers depending on your choice ... so take it or leave it ...

Choice for the swap one ONLY from -
>Ceremonial Burial
>Bronze Working
>Warrior Code

2. We require Writing ...

and can offer the following
>Ceremonial Burial
>Bronze Working
>Iron Working
>Warrior Code
>Wheel

we await your offer ...

In good faith and friendship and also to dispel any awkwardness that may exist due to the last meeting, MIA would like to enclose a gift which had been prepared earlier to show that we are an honourable people ... a flag ... as we notice that you have none posted on the UN team thread ... our team's artist will be happy to add any written information to the image that you may wish ...

Regards

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA

Have altered a bit not enough to post new version ...

 

[peter grimes]

That's a strong document. It includes the logic and specifics of why we felt they were completely unproductive in the last meeting. I'm glad to be on the team of Reason.

 

[fe3333au]

... just noticed that D-Nuts have just been sent the save ... therefore I apologize in advance ... but will send this stuff off now ... general concensus is that it covers what we want to say anyway ... you have 30 minutes to stop me from NOW

 

[ybbor]

go .

 

[Kentharu]

go for it!

 

[fe3333au]

Have sent ... an e-mail with attached flag (copied from the last image on the Donut Flag Thread ...

Also PMed DaveShack and zyxy (on-line as I type)

Meleet be Praised

 

[General_W]

wow - very nice Fe!
You've outdone yourself.

 

[ybbor]

Have sent ... an e-mail with attached flag (copied from the last image on the Donut Flag Thread ...

Also PMed DaveShack and zyxy (on-line as I type)

Meleet be Praised

just to be absolutely sure, you saved the flag to your computer and attached it right? nothing else?

 

[fe3333au]

@ ybbor ... it is the image shown in Flag gift to d-nut? post 18.

1. I 'Saved As' the image titled blank Donut 2
2. re-named to Donut Gift ... I thought the version 2 reference was a bit suss.
3. Attached to e-mail and sent ... 78.1 KB

@ General_W ... group effort ... we have a great team

 

[General_W]

New Message from the D'nuts!

Dear MIA,

Thank you for your letter. We have read with interest your exposition
on base tech cost. As you surely know, there are more factors to a
techs value than its base cost, but we understand your position.
Concerning our previous meeting, it was our impression that this
meeting was to deal with possible tech trades. You will hopefully
understand that our representative was not amused to discover that
MIA's ambassador didn't seem to know what MIA's tech position was, or
even what MIA had available for trade. We do not consider such
meetings useful unless representatives are reasonably well informed
about the state of their own nation. That being said, we feel that MIA
- Doughnut relations are best served by leaving the failure of this
meeting behind us and turn our eyes to the future.

We are pleased to see that you have made some specific offers for
trades. We are interested in trading Pottery for Bronze Working.
Regrettably we cannot commit to a trade involving Writing right now,
but we may do so in the near future. In the interest of any future
deals, may we assume that all the techs listed on your side are
actually in the possession of MIA?

In order to speed things up, we have enclosed Pottery as trade offer
with the save. On your next turn, please add Bronze Working and
accept. We will then accept next time the save comes to us.

Finally we would like to thank you for your beautiful flag design. As
a return gift we send you a box of doughnuts, so that you have some
use for your new pots.

Regards,
Team Doughnut

Attached Image:

 

[Chamnix]

Good news that Donuts are not completely immune to reason. Of course, accepting this deal means we will need some clever diplomacy with KISS - they won't be happy that we are giving any techs to the other continent, but hopefully they will be OK that it is only Bronze Working (cheap tech and Persia starts with it making it even cheaper), and really, it is the fact that KISS refused to give up Pottery for a reasonable price that drove us to Donuts. I think we really need to work hard on our KISS relationship now - assuring them this was a one-time deal, etc.

The other bad news is that the Donuts are almost certainly going for (and going to complete) the Republic slingshot... but too early a Republic can be a mixed blessing - hopefully the unit costs will eat them alive and we will be able to catch up before they come out of the recession.

 

[peter grimes]

Very good news. Again, though, a little high-handed in their approach. But offering the tech they were claiming was 'more valuable' than what we had initially offered is a positive rational sign on their part. Postitive is a relative term, and rational absolute. Sometimes it is easy to mistake a relative quality for an absolute one.

I re-read the chat between CaseyJ and Emperor Napoloen. There certainly were a couple areas where his background could have been stronger, but in no way is it accurate to say

....[he] didn't seem to know what MIA's tech position was, or
even what MIA had available for trade. We do not consider such
meetings useful unless representatives are reasonably well informed
about the state of their own nation

I think we should not actively work to alientate Dnuts. But we should probably pursue a partnership with KISS. I think (in broad strokes) we should keep Dnuts as friends, and help them to make sure TNT doesn't get too poweful. TNT are persians - scary.

 

[General_W]

But we should probably pursue a partnership with KISS.

@PeterG (and anyone else)

I'd be very interested to hear more about why you think KISS is a better partner for us than the D'nuts are.

Seems like we could naturally develop a more trusting and long term relationship with someone we won't be fighting for every square inch of land.
Doughnuts seem to offer a lower probability of sticking a knife in our back and they also naturally have more convergent goals with us.

I know our first meeting with them wasn’t as great as hoped – but I hope that’s not the only reason we’re siding more with KISS?

Looking forward to hearing what you have to say!

 

[Chamnix]

My concern is that we are making somewhat of a continental alliance with KISS (at least for the ancient age), and they won't be happy about our trading a tech to another continent so we will have to placate tham somehow.

I think our relationship with KISS is more important right now because the Donuts are not a threat to us and won't be for some time.

I'm not sure who makes who would make a better mid-term partner, but in the long run, they are all enemies anyway.

 

[fe3333au]

The reason I am for a stronger KISS relationship is probable better discussed in this poll ... which indicate a clear majority wanting to go with KISS ...

Our first meeting the D-Nuts were very arrogant particularly the one who made the snide comment about 'No Settler factory then Eh ??' ... and even KISS at their worst were nothing compared to the patronising glee of D-Nuts diplomats ... although some points are valid ... about the briefing level of our team ... although this would have been addressed if the time mixup hadn't occured ...

I think our team worked admiraly ... Our diplomatic methodology improves and gets honed after each meeting ...

Regarding KISS ... I see no problems
> We were awaiting their responce ... 1 day ... and Doughnuts contact led to a meeting ... TRUE
> We bring suspicions of D-Nut tech path to the table (still not sure if this is kosha to mention - see below)
> We remain open to all until agreements have been changed ... and due to GAME RULES can not mention anything other than meeting other team ... AND we chose not to in lieu of our potential KISS bonding ... TRUE
> Bottom line MIA do not lie ... we just choose which truths to release


Anyway here is the document I will send for their signature