Old Wonders - New Abilities

[Faustmouse]

I think the Gate should enable contacts to all civs on the same continent but Marco POlo should enable contacts to all other civs since it comes much later.
Or maybe enable contacts to all civs on the same continent and give you their maps.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Since it is no longer wondrous Ishtar Gate should become a notional wonder not a great wonder and its cost lowered. either that or it needs to be made wondrous again. Mind you a number of national wonders that became great wonders just because they had a name also need to have their effects and cost upped to actually make them great wonders.

 

[Vokarya]

Since it is no longer wondrous Ishtar Gate should become a notional wonder not a great wonder and its cost lowered. either that or it needs to be made wondrous again. Mind you a number of national wonders that became great wonders just because they had a name also need to have their effects and cost upped to actually make them great wonders.

Well, what do you suggest? I changed Ishtar Gate because I agreed that it was unrealistic to make contact with everyone (including trans-oceanic civilizations) during the Classical Era. I'd like to keep it a World Wonder.

Do you know why Ishtar Gate had its "make contact" ability? Is it simply drawing envoys from across the land? I was thinking an ability that granted you a one-time gold bonus on completing the Gate would be good. Ishtar Gate also has grants an espionage bonus to Mesopotamian buildings; we could increase that to maybe +4 (it's currently +1).

 

[Vokarya]

Over other improvment?
As an human, if I see an AI bulding this, I will keep some units ready to attack and capture bunker... Building a line of unprotected bunker can be really dangerous

Yes, Maginot Line puts Bunkers over your other improvements. It only puts them on frontier squares and it won't put a Bunker next to another Bunker.

You have to be at war with another civilization to capture forts of any kind, and since the Maginot Line triggers at the beginning of a turn, the player who gets the Bunkers will have the first chance to garrison them. AI's never seem to have problems with having enough units to garrison their forts.

 

[LumenAngel]

Do you know why Ishtar Gate had its "make contact" ability? Is it simply drawing envoys from across the land? I was thinking an ability that granted you a one-time gold bonus on completing the Gate would be good. Ishtar Gate also has grants an espionage bonus to Mesopotamian buildings; we could increase that to maybe +4 (it's currently +1).

Ishtar gate was the Gate of Babylon. Ishtar was a godess of fertility.
So, a gold and espionnage bonus are legit. A food bonus or less food needed to increase can be a solution too (Ishtar as godess of fertility can explain this).

 

[Thunderbrd]

The Gate of Babylon was widely known and envied throughout the Ancient World... I believe Gold, Espionage, and perhaps even positive benefit to diplomacy might be in order. (Though it did make Babylon high on Alexander the Great's conquering agenda.)

 

[Nimek]

Can we tweak:

Roseta Stone - comes with paelonthology tech
now makes all language civic enable

But have universal translator civic so early is not good idea
+ 80% is a very big bonus that make game unbalanced

 

[LumenAngel]

Can we tweak:

Roseta Stone - comes with paelonthology tech
now makes all language civic enable

But have universal translator civic so early is not good idea
+ 80% is a very big bonus that make game unbalanced

Just "+1".
I dont know if it s possible, but increase the cost of "free civics" (civics you can have because of wonders, not technology) can balance it. If you have to pay 2 times an astronomical cost, maybe you wont try universal translator too much...

 

[Thunderbrd]

No...
The point to tweak the roseta stone is one I considered when I read it was going in. But this kind of power shouldn't be countered by a terrible penalty for building the wonder. It needs to be handled more carefully.

The Rosetta Stone opened up our ability to understand Ancient languages... not really new or modern ones. I think we need to consider how THIS could be translated to c2c more effectively while maintaining the 'flavor'. Perhaps a research bonus to all universities or other buildings.

 

[Nimek]

+ 1 for thunderbird idea

 

[LumenAngel]

No...
The point to tweak the roseta stone is one I considered when I read it was going in. But this kind of power shouldn't be countered by a terrible penalty for building the wonder. It needs to be handled more carefully.

My idea is not a penality. It's "more option, at a cost".
The civics you can normally have -> normal cost. Otghhers -> cost increase.

If you want something more related to Rosetta Stone, bonus research, greater bonus with ancien relics (you understand them better)

 

[Vokarya]

OK, Rosetta Stone is one of my Wonders, and I thought the ability I gave it was really cute, but I'm getting enough pushback that it needs a change. Here is what I am thinking of having it do instead of the Language civics:

• +5 from Anthropology Lab
• +5 from Archeology Lab
• +5 , +5 from Museum

What do you think of this?

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

Personally, I like it. Keeps it from being an instant runaway tech lead, though admittedly by the time it's buildable I've usually got one already.

Idle thought. What if it also provided one random culture resource from the previous era or earlier?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I loved the flavor of the idea which is why I didn't say anything initially but I know how powerful advanced language civics can be and was worried it would greatly imbalance so I figured I'd let others say something from experience first.

I really like the rework... its very appropriate I think. Though... isn't that a hell of a lot of additional research? Getting up to +15 BASE research in every city? Wow... But I'm not too familiar with the balance scales on research development during that era.

 

[Vokarya]

I loved the flavor of the idea which is why I didn't say anything initially but I know how powerful advanced language civics can be and was worried it would greatly imbalance so I figured I'd let others say something from experience first.

I really like the rework... its very appropriate I think. Though... isn't that a hell of a lot of additional research? Getting up to +15 BASE research in every city? Wow... But I'm not too familiar with the balance scales on research development during that era.

I don't completely know either. I can always bring the numbers back down. Maybe it should be +3 instead of +5? What numbers should we be looking at in terms of balancing a civilization-wide research boost? I don't have any other wonders currently in the planning stage that offer global science bonuses, so this is the only one that would need this kind of testing.

 

[Vokarya]

Idle thought. What if it also provided one random culture resource from the previous era or earlier?

That would be conceptually possible, but might be too complex. I'd have to manually code in for pretty much every possible culture resource, since just about all of them (except maybe Prussian) come available before Rosetta Stone is available in the late Renaissance. Also, you wouldn't get much out of an old culture resource because the unit would have long since gone obsolete. You could extract some use out of the Hero units for that culture, but that would be it.

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

That would be conceptually possible, but might be too complex. I'd have to manually code in for pretty much every possible culture resource, since just about all of them (except maybe Prussian) come available before Rosetta Stone is available in the late Renaissance. Also, you wouldn't get much out of an old culture resource because the unit would have long since gone obsolete. You could extract some use out of the Hero units for that culture, but that would be it.

Aside from the Heroes, the only uses I could see are allowing you to build some of the more modern Oceanian or American cultures that have other cultures as prerequisites, and allowing you to build one of the few culture-requirement wonders. I wasn't really thinking of that as the primary benefit anyway, just as a small side effect that maybe fits the theme. In the same vein but easier to implement, maybe have it create a random Culture(<continent>) in its city.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't completely know either. I can always bring the numbers back down. Maybe it should be +3 instead of +5? What numbers should we be looking at in terms of balancing a civilization-wide research boost? I don't have any other wonders currently in the planning stage that offer global science bonuses, so this is the only one that would need this kind of testing.

Let's see... its just sub-modern, so perhaps +3, yes.

In all honesty, I wonder how much our understanding of the ancients would clue us in to future advancements. That is of course if the Ancient Alien theory is hokum. If not (which I lean towards), we have a LOT to learn about future tech improvements from what the ancients may have known that has since been forgotten.

 

[Nimek]

@Vokraya
This bonuses are good. Could stay because now i fighting in building thread to remove some bonuses from some buildings.

 

[Vokarya]

Let's see... its just sub-modern, so perhaps +3, yes.

In all honesty, I wonder how much our understanding of the ancients would clue us in to future advancements. That is of course if the Ancient Alien theory is hokum. If not (which I lean towards), we have a LOT to learn about future tech improvements from what the ancients may have known that has since been forgotten.

Okay, it will be +3 per building, but I'm going to leave the Museum bonus at +5. Since we doubled all the culture thresholds, culture bonuses have to be larger to stand out. It's only one bonus per city, too. Museums are usually pretty low on my priority list for cities; this might make them more attractive.