Older History: Greeks and Dorians

[Archbob]

I actually don't know much about this time period during I think the bronze age. Its a little early, but I think the greeks finally somehow drove the dorians out of the valley that eventually became athens. Anyone know more about this?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I thought the Dorians were the Greeks? The forerunners?

 

[Lucky]

IIRC Dorians eventually were integrated in the Athenian culture.
At the time we are talking about you cannot write globally about the Greeks or a greek culture. Nothing like that existed then, it only began to form itself.
Also when talking about the Athenians, you have to remember that several different ethnical groups settled in the area which later became Athens. So the Athenians of later time were a mixture, including the Dorians.

The real power of that time was Mycene (5000-3000BC). They had the largest Kingdom which span almost around the whole Pennepoles peninsula. Later that empire was destroyed in Greece by native tribes and only a few Mycenians fled to Crete to establish a new Kingdom and the city of Mykonos. They were a leading kingdom until the rise of Sparta and Athens and later were quickly forgotten.

This time is also referred to as the Greek Dark Ages, just like the medieval dark ages from 300-800AD, because only very few records exist of that time. Mostly myths and tales.

But coming back to the Dorians, they were definitely "assimilated" into the Athenian tribes. They were also the ones to bring the most culture to future Greece, just remember the Dorian architecture style.

 

[Nahuixtelotzin]

Very generally spoken, the "Greeks" we know from the classical times were not a single people. With the decline of the Mycenean civilization, or after it, indo-european groups which were probably very related to each other came into Greece bit by bit. Very probably it was not a real "invasion" nor a replacement of the old populace. The "Aegean substrate" (pre-indoeuropean peoples) existed almost everywhere, especially in Arkadia. The helotes and partially the perioics of the Spartans would be very much people of non-european descendance. From the "newcomers", the Dorians were one of the strongest groups, especially on the Peloponnes and central Greece. The Ionians (who include the Athenians) were another indoeuropean group but possibly merged more with the "conquered" population. In the end, the Indoeuropeans and the "Aegean substrate" could not be distinguished anymore, what remained were certain differences in the dialects, but that also applied between the Indoeuropean groups themselves...

 

[Civman10]

the dorians were refered to as the sons of herakles who invaded greece and some scolars believe were responsible for the downfall of the mycenaean civilization in 1175.
the dorian settled in the lower half of greece, the peleponnese of which spartan becomes their dominant polis (city state). grecce was not a united country but a collection of quarreling city states which were in many ways different to each other. the spartans for example were different to athens in many ways, cultural, militarily and socially. the athens refered to themselves as ionic the native peoples of attica (land in and around modern athens today). These two people of hellas (term used to express greece) formed two rival leauges (spartan peleponnesean league and athena deligan league ) who classed in the peleponnesean war 431/2.
which the spartan won. which led to the rise of alexander the great and then in turn the romans

if you are interested in greek history read thucydides account of the peloponnesian war and herodotus the histories, available from www.[url]http://www.penguin.co.uk/[/url]
and www.ebay.com(co.uk)
hope that helps

 

[History Guy]

Which is quite interesting because when the Phoenicians arrived in Lebanon way back when, they claimed to be "Dorian sons of Herakles" as well. One wonders.

 

[Sodak]

Originally posted by History Guy
Which is quite interesting because when the Phoenicians arrived in Lebanon way back when, they claimed to be "Dorian sons of Herakles" as well. One wonders.

It is speculated that the Phoenecians were the decendants of the Cretan civilization that got blown up in the 17th century bc. There isn't much doubt that they came from the aegean, in any case.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by Sodak
It is speculated that the Phoenecians were the decendants of the Cretan civilization that got blown up in the 17th century bc. There isn't much doubt that they came from the aegean, in any case.

They weren't Semites? Strange, I have been thinking they're a subgroup of the Semitic tribes of the Mid-east for some reason.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Nobody knows exactly who the Phoneceans were, but it is speculated, as Sodak says, that they were Minoans, the mysterious "sea people" who show up throughout the eastern mediterrainian after the eruption of Thera.

They almost certinly were not semitic in origin, but nobody can yet say with any definative proof.

Phonecean is a greek word, a variation of Phonectics.

 

[Archbob]

Originally posted by Sodak

It is speculated that the Phoenecians were the decendants of the Cretan civilization that got blown up in the 17th century bc. There isn't much doubt that they came from the aegean, in any case.

Descedents from atlantis perhaps?

 

[Switch625]

Originally posted by Fallen Angel Lord


Descedents from atlantis perhaps?

One theory of the origin of the Atlantis story is the destruction of the Minoan civilization on Crete by the catastrophic eruption of a nearby volcano. It would make sense for the Phoenicians to be decendants of the Minoans. I seem to recall that some archeologists have theorized a link between the Phoenician and Minoan styles of architecture and art.

 

[Sodak]

Switch625 sums it up - the Phoenecians more or less popped out of nowhere (from the perspective of the levant) speaking an unrelated tongue, making greek-style pottery, already being master navigators, and generally technically advanced. The Minoan civilization seems to best fit the bill, and many think they might be the source of the Atlantis legend.

 

[History Guy]

Hmmm...yes, I seem to recall that much of the metropolis of Crete was destroyed by earthquakes and floods, indeed half of Thera disappeared under the sea and is only slowly returning. I could believe that the Phoenicians were refugees. However, I doubt they were mixed in with the Sea Peoples who bothered Egypt in the days of Ramesses III, as by that time Phoenicia was a great power, and it had been for a couple thousand years. At the time of the invasion of the Sea Peoples (possibly a conglomerate of the Myceneans, the Philistines, and the Etruscans), Phoenicia had already settled Carthage and a host of other spots, so they probably had little to do with the Sea Peoples.

Aaaaaaaargh! Not Atlantis again!!