Olmecs not a major civ

[Kupe Navigator]

I can't understand why the biggest empire of Mesoamerica have insufficient information about? I guess there is at least 3 Cronist who write about they by this link of Wikipedia> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toltec_Empire

And Toltec can have a warrior UU making the game very fun to start next to Aztecs in real world

Heck if Mayans weren't a unified empire and is more likely a bunch of small city states... what makes you think toltecs had a firm iron grip on their lands?

 

[BuchiTaton]

No, they're really really really not. While not as bad as the Olmecs, they are a civilizatioh still shrouded in legends of which we actually know relatively little. Their "empire" is also more in the nature of a sphere of cultural influence than an actual empire - many of those cities belonged to other groups (read: Maya) but were heavily influenced by Toltec culture, for example.

Or, in civ terms, a lot of those areas had heavy Toltec loyalty pressure, but most of them never actually flipped.

i'd rank them fairly low on the priority list (but still far above Xicallanca); certainly the Purépecha and Zapotec are higher priority.

My view for Mesoamerican priorities:
0th tier (already here): Maya, Aztec.
1st tier (deserve representation, space permitting): Major civilizations extent around the time of conquest ): Purépecha, Zapotec and Mixtec, in that order
2nd tier (not that essential, but could be nice): assorted smaller, less organized groups: Chichimecan tribes, etc.
3rd tier (information likely insufficent to include, but would be nice): cool classic and post-classic empires we know only legends about: Toltecs.
4th tier (mosty useful if relevant scenarios are made): major offshots of the major civilizations extent c. The conquest: Highland Mayans, Tlaxcalla, etc
5th tier (Really no good reason) ; minor and trivial offshots of larger civs: Xicallanca
6th tier (not happening except as city state) civilization of which we only have assorted archaeological traces: Olmecs.

Seeing as we'd be lucky to get even one first tier civ into the game, let alone all three, second tier is a very remote chance at best, and beyond that...lol

Agree on the list and tiers, if we get a tird mesoamerican civ the best cadidates are Purepechas and Zapotecs or Mixtecs. I would add the Totonacs as an option for a trade+diplomacy civ.

 

[Henri Christophe]

They're not the largest empire in Mesoamerica. That map shows more their sphere of cultural influence - not an area that was politically united.

Some recent scholars believe that the Toltecs as a political entity or even a unified culture didn't exist - that they are a hodgepodge of assorted pre-Aztec civilizations that the Aztecs lumped together into one mythological entity (these scholars believe the "toltec" cultural influence is more Teotihuacan cultural influence)

And that's why our information is poor: because what we have is Aztec legends about toltecs. The Aztecs who, as far as we know, never even encountered the alleged Toltec empire - as far as we know it would have collapsed about a century before they reached central Mexico. And a lot of what they tell us about the Toltecs correspond to Aztec religious motives. Even the scholars who believe they did exist recognize that our sources on them are crap and the best we can do is guesswork from the Aztec legends.

Trying to understand Toltec history from that is roughly like trying to understand Macedonian history from the Arabic Alexander romances.

Maybe we have a lack of sure informations to know exactly what happens with Toltecs, but we have enought information to at least do a Civ of they.

Heck if Mayans weren't a unified empire and is more likely a bunch of small city states... what makes you think toltecs had a firm iron grip on their lands?

That is easy, I read in Popol Vuh. Toltecs invade the Mayapan and found Chichen Itzá

Agree on the list and tiers, if we get a tird mesoamerican civ the best cadidates are Purepechas and Zapotecs or Mixtecs. I would add the Totonacs as an option for a trade+diplomacy civ.

I also would like Totonacs, they can be at least a city state. The first civilization to met with Hernan Cortez

 

[Kupe Navigator]

That is easy, I read in Popol Vuh. Toltecs invade the Mayapan and found Chichen Itzá

So? Invading =/= empire. Athens invaded greek cities. Dose not mean their ever was Athens empire.

 

[Patine]

So? Invading =/= empire. Athens invaded greek cities. Dose not mean their ever was Athens empire.

The pre-Western Expansion-era Pawnee, Lakota, and Cheyenne used to militarily invade each other's hunting grounds - and even kill each other's hunters. Perfect "empires."

 

[Henri Christophe]

But toltecs have everything needed to be an empire, a capital in Tula and conquer other nation (Maya) and found the most beautiful pirâmide in foregnir land. Have people who says the believe in Kulkucan begins after Toltecs invasion

But, we can start this discussion again. What make an empire? Why some kingdoms can be called an empire?

As far I know empire is when one nation conquer other nation.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

But toltecs have everything needed to be an empire, a capital in Tula and conquer other nation (Maya) and found the most beautiful pirâmide in foregnir land. Have people who says the believe in Kulkucan begins after Toltecs invasion

But, we can start this discussion again. What make an empire? Why some kingdoms can be called an empire?

As far I know empire is when one nation conquer other nation.

No. An empire is when a state or nation has sufficient territories under the rule of one authority, most times an emperor. An empire does not need to conquer other nations to be an empire.

The Toltecs, while somewhat interesting to me, are not a good choice for Civilization because of one thing: Who will be the Leader? This can apply to the Olmecs as well.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

As far I know empire is when one nation conquer other nation.

definition of empire: " a major political unit having a territory of great extent or a number of territories or peoples under a single sovereign authority"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empire
Key word here is "SINGLE SOVEREIGN AUTHORITY!"
Human history is full of wars and invasions. So many civilizations have conquered land. that doesn't make it an empire. For example, the Greeks invaded the Trojans... Does it make the start of Greek empire?

Who will be the Leader?

a dude called 3Deer... Seriously what is with Henri and his obsession with "3Deer"...
Stop Henri stop.

Moderator Action: You need to stop trolling in this thread. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Evie]

The Toltec empire founding Chichen Itza run into the slight problem that radiocarbon dating says Chichen Itza (including the Mexicanized parts) is actually older than Tulla. So...sort of predating the Toltec empire, if it existed. There is a cultural link between Tulla and Chichen Itza, but it's much more complicated than those early assumption. The notion that the Toltec conquered the Maya has likewise largely been discredited in modern history incidentally.

But toltecs have everything needed to be an empire, a capital in Tula and conquer other nation (Maya) and found the most beautiful pirâmide in foregnir land. Have people who says the believe in Kulkucan begins after Toltecs invasion

Well, *existing* is kind of an important thing needed to be an empire, and we're not even sure the Toltecs did..

That is easy, I read in Popol Vuh. Toltecs invade the Mayapan and found Chichen Itzá

The Popol Vuh is a sacred text of the K'iche maya. Who lived in the Guatemalan highlands about 700 km south of Chichen Itza and Mayapan, and have fairy little in common with the Yucatan Maya. So, not exactly reliabe the best informed source here.

Incidentally, Mayapan is the *last* great Mayan metropolis. It was Chichen Itza's successor. So no, the Toltecs didn't invade it prior to founding Chichen Itza.

And finally, the Popol Vuh, doesn't talk about Toltec doing anything. It uses the word aj toltecat (a master of crafts) once as a title applied to a divinity at the time of creation (No, they're not crediting Toltecs with creating the world) and uses "Tollan" (a name sometime used for Tula) also once. Which, yes, is a name of Tula - but also Teotihuacan. And Tenochtitlan. And Cholula. And Chichen Itza. And probably Mayapan. They kind of used Tollan in the same way we might use "the Big City". Odds are the Tollan of the Popol Vuh is not Tula.

 

[BuchiTaton]

Some elements for TOTONACS (trade + diplomacy civ):
> Leader XICOMECÓATL
Advantege to make militar alliances with any civilization againts any not friendly civilization.
He was the crucial figure that provide intelligence, logistical and militar aid starting the chain of alliances that allowed the fall of the Mexica.
His image is also interesting as a very fat and tall, cunning and openly homosexual king.
- Unique Unit UXPI warrior.
Eagle and Jaguar warriors are overused, but what about some nice crocodile warriors!
- Unique Building VOLADORES plaza.
Could work on many ways since originally was more ritual (food and religion) then more festive (trade and culture).

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Some elements for TOTONACS (trade + diplomacy civ):
> Leader XICOMECÓATL
Advantege to make militar alliances with any civilization againts any not friendly civilization.
He was the crucial figure that provide intelligence, logistical and militar aid starting the chain of alliances that allowed the fall of the Mexica.
His image is also interesting as a very fat and tall, cunning and openly homosexual king.
- Unique Unit UXPI warrior.
Eagle and Jaguar warriors are overused, but what about some nice crocodile warriors!
- Unique Building VOLADORES plaza.
Could work on many ways since originally was more ritual (food and religion) then more festive (trade and culture).

That... if they have a language that isn't 90% impossible to find, then they could be somewhat interesting. However, as @Evie said, there are other Mesoamerican Civs that could be better choices than the Totonacs. Nice idea, though.

Edit: And by that, I mean apparently their second tier. Not bad.

 

[Evie]

I'd probably rank the Totonac in my second tier - not quite up to the level of the Purépecha, Zapotec and Mixtec, but easily on a level with the Chichimeca people and other smaller but reasonably documented civilizations of Mesoamerica.

EDITED: And there are apparently something like a quarter million living speakers of the various Totonac cluster languages. Finding the right sources should be doable.

EDITED TWO: TBH, all my first and second tier candidates are well into the six digits for currently living speakers. (For the broad Chichimeca group it's more that some of them are six digits, as they are a collection of different groups)

 

[Henri Christophe]

The Toltec empire founding Chichen Itza run into the slight problem that radiocarbon dating says Chichen Itza (including the Mexicanized parts) is actually older than Tulla. So...sort of predating the Toltec empire, if it existed. There is a cultural link between Tulla and Chichen Itza, but it's much more complicated than those early assumption. The notion that the Toltec conquered the Maya has likewise largely been discredited in modern history incidentally.



Well, *existing* is kind of an important thing needed to be an empire, and we're not even sure the Toltecs did..



The Popol Vuh is a sacred text of the K'iche maya. Who lived in the Guatemalan highlands about 700 km south of Chichen Itza and Mayapan, and have fairy little in common with the Yucatan Maya. So, not exactly reliabe the best informed source here.

Incidentally, Mayapan is the *last* great Mayan metropolis. It was Chichen Itza's successor. So no, the Toltecs didn't invade it prior to founding Chichen Itza.

And finally, the Popol Vuh, doesn't talk about Toltec doing anything. It uses the word aj toltecat (a master of crafts) once as a title applied to a divinity at the time of creation (No, they're not crediting Toltecs with creating the world) and uses "Tollan" (a name sometime used for Tula) also once. Which, yes, is a name of Tula - but also Teotihuacan. And Tenochtitlan. And Cholula. And Chichen Itza. And probably Mayapan. They kind of used Tollan in the same way we might use "the Big City". Odds are the Tollan of the Popol Vuh is not Tula.

My edition of Popol Vuh says about Toltecas and Yaquis, I don't know what a Yaqui is, but I found one tribe in USA who is called Yaqui.

Popol Vuh says about the white civilized empire who came from north sea bringing destruction and civilization, if not the Toltecs? Who is? The Spaniards isn't because was before Colombus arrival. Who indave and conquer the Mayapan from North Sea? I think is the Toltecs!! Who you think Popol Vuh is speaking about?

 

[Evie]

Well, one, I don't find those white invaders from the north in my copy of the Popol Vuh. Maybe I'm misreading a passage, could you point me to which part of the book deal with that?

EDIT: Found it. You're misunderstandign that passage (badly). That passage doesn't talk about foreign invaders ; it talk about the people of Quiche themselves. It's the story of how they came to travel (eventually) to Quiche from their place of origin. Rather like the story of the Aztec's journey from Aztlan to Tenochtitlan.

Second, please leave Mayapan out of this. I don,t know what you think the word means, but it's definitely not a word for the Mayan lands. It's one specific city which existed long after the collapse of Tula and Chichen Itza - the last major Mayan capital, in fact. The League of Mayapan was a political entity, but again, that one existed after the time of Tula.

Tolteca/Toltecatl is a term meaning "artisans" (which the Aztecs applied to their alleged predecessors because they built impressive stone things). In the specific context of the Popol Vuh it is only used to talk about the gods, discussing their skill at creating things. No, the Mayans did not turn the Toltec Empire into gods.

Yaqui, per the forewords and footnote of my copy of the Popol Vuh, is a general Quiche terms for Central Mexican (possibly Nahua-speaking) people. The Quiche felt they had much kinship to these "Yaqui" (and indeed used a lot of Nahuatl loanwords in their version of Maya, hence the presence of the term Toltec).

Now. Certainly, a lot of Mayan dynasties claimed ties with Central Mexico. There was something in the Mayan past that made them look to that region as a place of particular importance and political legitimacy. But the evidence we have doens't really work so well with the Toltecs as the main source of that influence. Chichen Itza's "Toltec" buildings are older than Tula's. A lot of the Central Mexico influence in Mayan lands significantly predates Tula. And Tula, while a large city, was not nearly on the scale we'd expect for a city ruling an empire of that size: about 60 000 people at its height, comparable to Chichen Itza itself, a little larger than Cholula- one of the second-tier Mesoamerican large cities. If it were really the political and cultural capital you expect it to be, we might expect something heftier. And we would expect the Maya to have left actual traces of such events in their cities - glyphs and stelae depicting the political change. They didn't.

But. There is a city that fits all those criteria. It's considerably older, flourishing between 200 BCE and 500 CE. It dwarfed Tula, being at least twice as populous at their respective heights and maybe as much as four times - and likely a great multicultural city with neighborhoods from across Mesoamerica, as we'd expect from a city with far-reaching political and cultural influence. And the Mayas have left us actual historical records - glyph inscriptions and stelae - of being invaded by foreigners from the west precisely when this city was at its height - an invasion that correspond to a sudden shift in Mayan artistic and architectural styles to match the Central Mexican style of this city.

That city is Teotihuacan. They are the elephant in the room when it comes to Central Mexican influence among the Maya. And if we knew their language (or even just could decipher their writing), their absence from civ would be very hard to justify - it would be like having Europe without Rome.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Well, one, I don't find those white invaders from the north in my copy of the Popol Vuh. Maybe I'm misreading a passage, could you point me to which part of the book deal with that?

EDIT: Found it. You're misunderstandign that passage (badly). That passage doesn't talk about foreign invaders ; it talk about the people of Quiche themselves. It's the story of how they came to travel (eventually) to Quiche from their place of origin. Rather like the story of the Aztec's journey from Aztlan to Tenochtitlan.

About the Yaquis, my Popol Vuh have a side note who says "Los mexicanos, los antiguos toltecas, el pueblo náhuatl, que uniéndose a los mayas del sur, fueron el origen de las naciones indígenas de Guatemala. El autor llama a los yaquis los sacerdotes y sacrificadores, y estos mismos nombres da en varios lugares a los jefes quichés Balam-Quitzé y compañeros". so I understand the Yaquis as the foregner(Toltecs) who invade and mix up with the people of Quiché.

That city is Teotihuacan. They are the elephant in the room when it comes to Central Mexican influence among the Maya. And if we knew their language (or even just could decipher their writing), their absence from civ would be very hard to justify - it would be like having Europe without Rome.

Teotihuacan can be at least a city state. Is Teotihuacan the Yaquis? I don't think so. I think the generic nahualt who deserve to be at this game is the Toltecs, they build a capital who survive the time too, I was there, not so fanthastic as Teotihuacan but still there.

 

[Evie]

That's a footnote, not the actual text. It represent later interpretation, and, dependig on when your copy dates you msy represent outdated scholarship (we only managed to break the Mayan glyphs and read the majority of their texts within the last few decades, so a LOT of what we thought we knew about Maya before the 90s or so should be taken with a whole saltshaker).

The actual Popol Vuh doesn't appear to talk about invaders. It may assign "Yaqui" ancestry or kinship to some of the founders of the Quiché, but that doesn't mean invasion - that just means the two were related. Which could be a result of immigration, intermarriage, cultural influences, or a dozen other things unrelated to invasion.

And, again, the Popol Vuh cannot be considered a historical source on what happened in the Yucatan - because it deals with the history of Guatemala Highland Maya.

And we already have one Nahua civ in the game - Aztecs. We don't need another, at least not as high priority. There were a wide variety of Nahua people and there is nothing that makes the Toltecs better representatives than the Aztecs.

 

[Henri Christophe]

And we already have one Nahua civ in the game - Aztecs. We don't need another, at least not as high priority. There were a wide variety of Nahua people and there is nothing that makes the Toltecs better representatives than the Aztecs.

I agree on this point, despite I also want to see in this game the Tlaxcala Republic and they are also nahuatl-parlantes.
I think Toltec shoud come next in Mesoamerican expansions because they achieved the biggest empire (on land size) of Mesoamerica, bigger than Aztecs.
2nd in my tier I would put Zapotecs
3rd Mixtecs
4th Terascans, Totonacas

And Tlaxcala as a city state

 

[Evie]

they achieved the biggest empire (on land size) of Mesoamerica

No, they did not.

That map you keep refering to is a map of their area of cultural influence. It's not a map of areas under direct political control. It's not an empire. And even that is highly uncertain because a lot of it is trying to fit Aztec legends to what archaeology tells us - and largely predates the recent deciphering of the Mayan glyphs, which allowed us to read the vast majority of mayan inscriptions, which are considerably more reliable on the topic than the Aztec codex (because they were written by eyewitness or their close relatives, close to the time the events actually happened, as opposed to the Aztec codex which were written by people who never even met the Toltecs).

Of the three great pre-Aztec mesoamerican cultures (Toltec, Olmec, Teotihuacan), Toltec are probably the least in terms of historical importance. The only reason I would put them in the game before the Olmec is that we at least have a name for a potential Toltec leader (we don't even have that for the Olmec), but we ALSO have a potential Teotihuacan leader name, so they're still far ahead of the Toltecs for inclusion.

Tlaxcala needs to wait until all the important NON-Nahua groups get their turn (Zapotec, Mixtec, Purépecha, Totonac). There's already one Nahua civ in the game.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Not going to lie I think the modern day country of Mexico is probably the next best option if we want another civ in the region besides the Aztecs and the Maya.

Of course it's not historically part of Mesoamerica but today it encompasses the whole area.

And that doesn't mean we should give Mexico any uniques or abilities based off of the Zapotecs, Toltecs, Mixtecs etc. for representation.

 

[Zaarin]

Not going to lie I think the modern day country of Mexico is probably the next best option if we want another civ in the region besides the Aztecs and the Maya.

"We can never have too many market pandering civs."--Firaxis, probably