OMG, look what I found in the Greek World

[Autumn Leaf]

If you want it, here it is ...

Let's just say, that goodie hut better be worth the trek!

 

[Autumn Leaf]

All that expensive preparation in Kommos, and the Sea People spawn on (empty) Santorini!

Spoiler Oh look, the Sea People are attacking ... the wrong island! :

Spoiler Second time lucky ... :

Spoiler A birthday gift for the Athenians :

 

[Autumn Leaf]

No wonder the Phoenicians go down!

Spoiler Crikey! :

 

[bluepotato]

The Hittites decided not to put up with the excessive amount of Anatolian sea people anymore and just moved to Egypt.

Spoiler :

(this happened while testing 2.0, it's actually somewhat playable now)

 

[Edmund Ironside]

Doesn't look like they will be much better off in Egypt though, not with all those lovely camel riders around. They should have set sail for the Western Med!

 

[bluepotato]

Doesn't look like they will be much better off in Egypt though, not with all those lovely camel riders around. They should have set sail for the Western Med!

Not sure if that's a lot better either, early game barbs were really way too numerous.
BTW, since I was starting to re-add UPs to the rewrite and noticed that the Sumerians practically don't have an UP because mercenaries were disabled in 1.6, I decided that re-implementing mercenaries would both solve the problem of large stacks of sea people wandering in the Mediterranian after the collapse of practically all civilizations that are supposed to collapse, and would also give the Sumerians a working UP. So here's what I've come up with:
There's now a chance for all inactive barbarians (=those that don't pillage or fight for ten turns) to try their luck as soldiers of fortune. This rule applies to independents as well, so in theory new civs should be able to build empires way quicker than before (there won't be stacks of independents protecting a single city). These mercenaries will "wander" around provinces, and if nobody hires them they will eventually be disbanded (there's no actual unit representation of them on the map, just like in the original mercenary mod). Less units=faster loading times, so I like to think that this was a good idea. Haven't implemented the ability to hire these mercs yet (currently working on a Python screen for human players, will have to add some logic for the AI to hire them too), so still not entirely sure if it'll actually have the effect I was hoping for... will see!

 

[redaloe]

Soo I decided to play a game as Phoenicia and I quickly noticed three things: a) Phoenicia starts with a spearman, a unit that's built with a tech that Phoenicia does NOT have at the start of the game b) spearmen actually have really good strength for that age c) most of the cities at the start of the game are defended by Town Guards, who are weak AS HELL.

Anyway, this is the story of my reign of terror using that one spearman, who I later called Jeffrey, because haha ancient Phoenician spearman has generic English name.

Spoiler Jeffrey destroys Minoan civilization a few turns after spawn. Try leaping over THIS bull, Satur :

Spoiler Prooobably should change the name of that UU :

Spoiler Fun fact: there was only Hykso, singular. The Egyptians changed this to "Hyksos" because they were too embarrased to admit they were beaten by one guy :

Spoiler Jeffrey wasn't impressed by The Pyramids. 'They're just big stone triangles. What's so great about that?' :

Spoiler Jeffrey turns a thriving city into an archaeological site :

Spoiler For some reason the game thinks settlers are gunpowder units :

Spoiler This city started with 0 health. Is this intentional or a bug? :

Spoiler The Hittites just popped into existence while at war with me, no declaration of war or anything. Probably pissed about that Catal Huyuk thing :

Spoiler A civ with a chariot UU is waaaaay less scary when you have a superpowered spearman :

Spoiler So I'll admit it. Hattusa was on a hill. I had to use one javelineer. I'm a fraud, I know :

Spoiler Will the REAL assyrians please stand up? (probably should fix barb city names)) :

Spoiler I know the ai is bad but those Assyrian swordsmen just stood there for years. I prepared for an invasion and everything but they never came. So rude :

Spoiler In fact, the Assyrians were so rude that Jeffrey went and gave them a piece of his mind :

Spoiler Bulbing may be broken. Notice how I have Alphabet but not its precursor tech :

Spoiler For some reason Jerusalem gets renamed to Tyre when conquered by Phoenicians. Probably a bug :

Spoiler I noticed a weird bug where collapsed civs show up as living-yet-unrelated civs through the fog of war. Note how the former Hittite lands show up as 'City State of Carthage' :

Spoiler ... and how when you get closer, it changes to 'Independent Cities' like it actually is :

Anyway, I think I've proven my point. That starting spearman should change to a warrior, or maybe town guards should be buffed, or both. Choose whatever you think is best

Another thing I think should be changed is the way civs start at war with other civs, even when they don't have borders with them. For example, the Hittites started at war with Egypt even though they were nowhere near each other. I think it might be better if for example Hitties were scripted to declare war on Egypt as soon as either one of them controlled Phoenicia or Palestine.

Also it doesn't make sense that The Kingdom of Israel starts at war with Phoenicia, considering how the Bible keeps talking about how Hiram was totally cool and how he was total bros with David and Solomon and helped build the Second Temple and so on. You'd *think* they'd be friendly but nooooo

I eventually stopped playing because my economy and stability were constantly trash and I kept collapsing every few turns. If you'll notice my research slider was at or near zero for a very very long time, and it's because the colonies I built for the UHV were such a big mistake. Their maintenance was really really high and my economy started to improve once barbarians conquered them. Honestly even though I conquered half the known world I still felt the Phoenician uniques were really lacklustre. The UU is a galley with one extra move. Neat, but hardly unique. The UP allows naval units to pass through rival borders, which is unfortunately not very useful. The Phoenicians were historically known for their trade in murex dye ("Tyrian purple") and for the lots of colonies they built around the Mediterranean, so they should have more economic bonuses and be rewarded for building colonies. I think the UP should be changed to something related to colonies (Reduced maintenance based on distance, or extra commerce/gold for every coastal city X tiles away from the capital), the UU should be allowed to pass through rival borders (the current UP) in addition to the faster movement, and the UB should maaaaybe be changed to give extra trade route yield (or extra commerce from dye). Otherwise, the best strategy would be to just turtle up in the Fertile Triangle, which is hardly what they historically did

Jeffrey never died. Some say he continues to terrorize Anatolian villagers to this day.

Sorry for the long post, and keep up the good work!

 

[bluepotato]

Haha, that was quite a read. I'll replace Jeffrey with a warrior, then. Some remarks:

Prooobably should change the name of that UU

Yeah, probably. Any ideas?

For some reason the game thinks settlers are gunpowder units

Huh, is that on the latest development version? I've recently removed the gunpowder unit category, so that may be the problem.

This city started with 0 health. Is this intentional or a bug?

I think it is intentional.

Will the REAL assyrians please stand up? (probably should fix barb city names))

Well the story behind that is, I originally placed those cities manually in the WBSave when migrating it to the new format, complete with names. Later when I added civ-specific city names I somehow managed to mess it up and ended up without those independent/barbarian city names. And I didn't really feel like placing them again because it's rather tedious and I had quite a few other things to do anyways, so for now most indie/barb cities use civ4 barb city names. I'll fix it later...

I know the ai is bad but those Assyrian swordsmen just stood there for years. I prepared for an invasion and everything but they never came. So rude

Yes it is bad, I've seen this glitch pretty much in every RFC game (like aztecs in DoC). I'm planning to merge AdvCiv after finishing 2.0, which does have an improved AI. Maybe that'll fix this particular issue. I hope, at least.

Bulbing may be broken. Notice how I have Alphabet but not its precursor tech

I think Trading is its requirement.

I noticed a weird bug where collapsed civs show up as living-yet-unrelated civs through the fog of war. Note how the former Hittite lands show up as 'City State of Carthage'

I'm not sure if it's even possible to fix that, but I'll look into it. This happens because after civs collapse, other civs will take their place (slot) by changing the collapsed civ's type to theirs. So effectively they are the same player, just as a different civilization. Since civ4 wasn't really built with this in mind, there are some unexpected visual glitches as a result. If you have the beta version, then you'll see this on the replay screen as well
(not on the development one, I managed to fix this one since releasing beta).

Another thing I think should be changed is the way civs start at war with other civs, even when they don't have borders with them. For example, the Hittites started at war with Egypt even though they were nowhere near each other. I think it might be better if for example Hitties were scripted to declare war on Egypt as soon as either one of them controlled Phoenicia or Palestine.

Yeah these wars are necessary so that there is an actual chance that the AI perhaps conquers something. I'll consider changing this after merging AdvCiv, hopefully that'll somewhat improve the situation.

Also it doesn't make sense that The Kingdom of Israel starts at war with Phoenicia, considering how the Bible keeps talking about how Hiram was totally cool and how he was total bros with David and Solomon and helped build the Second Temple and so on. You'd *think* they'd be friendly but nooooo

No idea why they start at war tbh, I'll probably change this then.

If you'll notice my research slider was at or near zero for a very very long time, and it's because the colonies I built for the UHV were such a big mistake. Their maintenance was really really high and my economy started to improve once barbarians conquered them.

The Phoenician distance maintenance modifier is supposed to be low, maybe it was the cities maintenance that caused the problem?

Honestly even though I conquered half the known world I still felt the Phoenician uniques were really lacklustre. The UU is a galley with one extra move. Neat, but hardly unique. The UP allows naval units to pass through rival borders, which is unfortunately not very useful. The Phoenicians were historically known for their trade in murex dye ("Tyrian purple") and for the lots of colonies they built around the Mediterranean, so they should have more economic bonuses and be rewarded for building colonies.

Yeah the UP is just the Dutch one from RFC and doesn't really work here; I might just change it to something like extra (double? +50%?) commerce from luxury resources. The UU and UB don't really "stand out" in how bad they are, so I'd say those are low priority.

Otherwise, the best strategy would be to just turtle up in the Fertile Triangle, which is hardly what they historically did

Yes and sadly even the AI does that. They usually settle one colony with their first settler and then just stay in the Levant.

Sorry for the long post, and keep up the good work!

Don't worry, I enjoyed every bit of Jeffrey's saga

 

[redaloe]

Yeah, probably. Any ideas?

I probably should have realized that's easier said than done

Since the Minoan script isn't deciphered yet and their language is barely known and could be related to Martian for all anyone knows, I think it would be best to take some heavy creative liberties. The Mycenaeans are important in the history of the Minoans and we DO know their language, so I think the best option would be to take some random Mycenaean word related to ships or the sea. I found a short glossary for Mycenaean Greek here and I like "Ereta" ("rowers"), "Naus" ("ship"), and "Daminia/Damnia" (name of a ship). Of course you could find another word you like or ignore my suggestion completely.

Huh, is that on the latest development version? I've recently removed the gunpowder unit category, so that may be the problem.

Yep, reinstalled it directly from github just to be sure.

I think Trading is its requirement.

Yeah, sorry about that. Was kinda confused by the layout of the tech screen

The Phoenician distance maintenance modifier is supposed to be low, maybe it was the cities maintenance that caused the problem?

Nope. number of cities maintenance barely rose over 2 GPT even at my greatest extent since I razed most cities I conquered. Meanwhile, the distance maintenance alone for my 3 pop city in Spain (needed for UHV) was 6+ GPT

I actually didn't know civs had different maintenance modifiers. I was kinda intrigued and did a little experiment in WB with a few civs. Out of the civs I tested, Etruscans had the lowest maintenance (?), Carthage had the highest (???), and Phoenicia was just average. You might already know about all this but if it's something unexpected then I can go into more detail about what I did.

Yeah the UP is just the Dutch one from RFC and doesn't really work here; I might just change it to something like extra (double? +50%?) commerce from luxury resources. The UU and UB don't really "stand out" in how bad they are, so I'd say those are low priority.

I like that UP idea. And yeah I know that you've probably got more important parts of the mod to work on, I was just giving feedback in case you needed any.

 

[Wessel V1]

I'm in favour of having a UU called Jeffrey as the easter egg of this mod.

 

[bluepotato]

I probably should have realized that's easier said than done

Since the Minoan script isn't deciphered yet and their language is barely known and could be related to Martian for all anyone knows, I think it would be best to take some heavy creative liberties. The Mycenaeans are important in the history of the Minoans and we DO know their language, so I think the best option would be to take some random Mycenaean word related to ships or the sea. I found a short glossary for Mycenaean Greek here and I like "Ereta" ("rowers"), "Naus" ("ship"), and "Daminia/Damnia" (name of a ship). Of course you could find another word you like or ignore my suggestion completely.

I guess any of those could work.

Nope. number of cities maintenance barely rose over 2 GPT even at my greatest extent since I razed most cities I conquered. Meanwhile, the distance maintenance alone for my 3 pop city in Spain (needed for UHV) was 6+ GPT

Yeah just checked it myself and their modifiers are indeed set to average. Not sure if I made a mistake while porting the modifiers to the WBSave or it was originally like this as well. It'll be changed anyways.

I actually didn't know civs had different maintenance modifiers. I was kinda intrigued and did a little experiment in WB with a few civs. Out of the civs I tested, Etruscans had the lowest maintenance (?), Carthage had the highest (???), and Phoenicia was just average. You might already know about all this but if it's something unexpected then I can go into more detail about what I did.

Those results match the values set in the WBSave except the Etruscans. They are supposed to have the default modifier.

I like that UP idea. And yeah I know that you've probably got more important parts of the mod to work on, I was just giving feedback in case you needed any.

Right, some parts have a higher priority than others, but all feedback is appreciated.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

I guess any of those could work.

Possible UU idea for Minoa (pinched from Civ 6 custom created civ)
Unique Unit
Argo
An ancient era naval scouting unit that can freely enter opponent territory, with 4 movement and 3 sight range, and its own custom promotion tree. Extremely useful for getting a early scouting advantage. Available with the Sailing tech.

No idea why they start at war tbh, I'll probably change this then.

It relates to the invasion of Canaan by Joshua.

Yeah these wars are necessary so that there is an actual chance that the AI perhaps conquers something. I'll consider changing this after merging AdvCiv, hopefully that'll somewhat improve the situation.

I generally encouraged ai war for both spawning and for scripted time events (such as punic wars) as the ai is so passive. I don't know if it is possible to script wars based on civs expanding into particular regions? Hopefully the merger with advCiv will fix this ai passive issue.

 

[bluepotato]

It relates to the invasion of Canaan by Joshua.

Well players will automatically start at war with whoever controls their starting location anyways, so I think that represents it better.

I generally encouraged ai war for both spawning and for scripted time events (such as punic wars) as the ai is so passive. I don't know if it is possible to script wars based on civs expanding into particular regions? Hopefully the merger with advCiv will fix this ai passive issue.

There is a script in RFC that makes the AI randomly declare war sometimes based on what territory other civs control. I haven't reimplemented this yet, and based on what I've read in an old K-Mod RFCEurope merge thread, it probably won't be necessary with the K-Mod/AdvCiv AI anyways.
Likewise, I haven't re-added your scripted invasions to the new scenario system (though that is something I want to do before the full 2.0 release, just haven't had time yet), so that should make civs expand at least a bit more (not less than in 1.8, anyways). And then we'll see if and how well merging AdvCiv works.

 

[Autumn Leaf]

What the -

Spoiler Roman Infiltrators :

Suddenly my garrison is expelled from Chalkis and three Roman Legions materialise out of nowhere, occupying the city? What is the historical basis for this event?

Even DoC ain't this brazen.

Edit: image wasn't appearing. Fixed.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

That is the result of the square shaped Roman core! I think the Roman spawn as never been changed form how Rhyes originally did it. Its probably partly been left as it helps get the Romans out of Italy even if it is entirely ahistorical.

 

[Autumn Leaf]

That is the result of the square shaped Roman core! I think the Roman spawn as never been changed form how Rhyes originally did it. Its probably partly been left as it helps get the Romans out of Italy even if it is entirely ahistorical.

The Romans spawned quite a while ago; Jules eventually paid me 70 Gold for peace. 206 BC is nothing special historically. NVM, I have half a dozen veteran Phalanxes nearby so this blip should be brief. I already have UHV 2 & 3 in hand and I'm researching Drama with Engineering next.

200 BC: Suddenly there are Romans in Patras and up north too. This is not a spawn, it's some kind of scripted DoC-style "let's give the AI free stacks" invasion event. When I retake Chalkis, what had been a moderately well-developed city has only a Courthouse left in it and it's starving because the Habor has been destroyed. And now my home guard Phalanxes have to run to the other side of Greece to retake Patras.

ETA: Cleaned them all up by 164 BC, but that was scary. The two in the north kept to the hills where I had only 20% chance of winning, until they attacked Argos Orestikon from the Sheep flat, where I could finally counter-attack the survivor after their attack failed (one killed my Archer but the defending Phalanxes killed the other). At one point they were within reach of Thermopylae, defended only by an Archer, but didn't attack (Phalanxes were on their way up from Mycenae but couldn't get there in time). Also, the Legions were ignoring movement restrictions inside hostile culture and using my roads, without having the Commando promotion.

 

[bluepotato]

200 BC: Suddenly there are Romans in Patras and up north too. This is not a spawn, it's some kind of scripted DoC-style "let's give the AI free stacks" invasion event.

Indeed, the idea was to schedule units on plots so they function as conquerors, but looks like that didn't turn out that well. I suppose it'd be better to make them spawn like barbarians, since them taking over cities without fighting wasn't intended at all...

 

[Autumn Leaf]

Indeed, the idea was to schedule units on plots so they function as conquerors, but looks like that didn't turn out that well. I suppose it'd be better to make them spawn like barbarians, since them taking over cities without fighting wasn't intended at all...

I think only Chalkis got taken over from inside; the stack beside Patrae spawned south of the city (I was just startled and distracted) but the city had only one Archer defending, so it offered no resistance. I was keeping my military as small as possible to keep research high, relying on seeing an invasion coming and being able to bring an overwhelming relief force to bear anywhere in the south from central Mycenae. The north, more exposed, had a bespoke detachment of 4 Phalanxes; but in 206 BC they were all running in various directions chasing barbarians.

Just a range check to verify the selected plot is not a city and you're gold with your Conquerors. In retrospect it broke up a pretty boring stretch of researching.

 

[Autumn Leaf]

The AI sometimes sends its free Missionary unit forth instead of using it. This clearly causes the exiled unit great sorrow. (Screen shot from v1.8; been meaining to post this for a while.)

Spoiler Exiled! :

 

[Autumn Leaf]

Not so much OMG as an example of the random beauty and mystery the game sometimes throws up. What's the story here? The guy in the Fort watching Harran, where there's a guy watching the guy in the Fort. The Kohen on a mission, followed by her pet Elephant.

Spoiler Outside the Wall :