On Curraghs (a roundabout unit request)

[Mithadan]

I figger I ought to continue this in it's own thread, as it has little to do with that awesome Phonecian Bireme aaglo did...

Time to replace the curragh...

Speaking of the curragh, that graphic sucks! There needs to be a way better graphic for the curragh, that wicked huge hulk of a Celtic ship.

Curragh: Do you mean that silly looking half of a sphere? - or a rowing boat? What does a curragh look like?

Well, I got me to a scanner today. Further to this helpful text, here are the only pictures I've got:

--Credit: Rome's Enemies (2): Gallic & British Celts (Oxford: Osprey, 1985), p. 39.

This sucker ain't a skin hemisphere! If its oak construction was impervious to Roman rams, if its sides were too high for the corvus to get a hold on (and if "Unlike the Roman galleys which were uncomfortable in the waters of the North Atlantic the ships of the Veneti were capable sailers"), I figger it warrants a place in Civ far more prestigious than Conquests' "It is a tiny, primitive boat that must end each turn in a coastal square -- they are in danger of sinking if they end their turn in a sea or ocean square." That is, a great big wooden beast of a ship would be more in order than the stock graphic we've got at present. We need a ship bigger than a galley! (Oh yeah, and it doesn't have oars...which is a big reason why it lost to the Romans, on a nice calm day!)

(Okay, honestly, I really don't know what I'm talking about. I ain't no historian, eh...)

This Irish model below might be more of a skin-type boat (I can't really tell), but still a far cry from one of them little hemispherical bathtubs:

--Credit: Pictish Warrior AD 297-841 (Oxford: Osprey, 2002), p. 61.

The following Pictish boat is obviously skin-covered, but still pretty intense looking. Sweet logo on the sail...

--Credit: Pictish Warrior AD 297-841,illustrated by Wayne Reynolds (Oxford: Osprey, 2002), p. 35 (plate C).

Quite frankly, I dunno what the C3C Curragh graphic is good for at all! If they wanted something to double as "a small boat made of skin stretched over a frame of wood" that could "represent any small boat (papyrus, wooden canoes or rafts, etc.) used by ancient people to expedite movement up and down waterways and along coastal shorelines," they should have called it a coracle, and done-up a graphic of a semi-spherical one-man kiddie-pool like the one St. Patrick was supposed to have crossed over to Ireland in, or like Reepicheep used to sail over the edge of the world at the end of the Voyage of the Dawntreader.

Okay, I gotta stop :rant:-ing!

If anyone has any better pictures of curraghs, do post 'em. If anyone has a better case as to why we need a cooler curragh graphic, do tell. If anyone thinks we ought not to have such a unit, fire away! I wouldn't want to have a unit creator start making this boat without a decent case backing it up...

 

[vbraun]

I think a canoe is a better replacment for the curragh. But thats my opinion.

 

[kulade]

I like the round irish boat.

 

[mitsho]

Why not an egyptian nil boat (the name doesn't come to my mind?)

mfG mitsho

 

[BeBro]

I figger I ought to continue this in it's

This sucker ain't a skin hemisphere! If its oak construction was impervious to Roman rams, if its sides were too high for the corvus to get a hold on (and if "Unlike the Roman galleys which were uncomfortable in the waters of the North Atlantic the ships of the Veneti were capable sailers") (...)

Errm, didn't Caesars fleet defeat those Veneti completely in a naval battle during the 50ies BC...

 

[Mithadan]

Yup, Caesar did indeed completely defeat a fleet of Veneti ships. From what I'm told, here's how that happened:

The Veneti seems to have controlled the trade with Britain, and possessed a fleet of large ships with leathern sails, high poops, and towers, but did not use oars, which was the reason they were beaten on a calm day by the Romans.

--Source: Marjorie and C. H. B. Quennell, Everyday Life in the New Stone, Bronze & Early Iron Ages (London: B. T. Batsford, 1922), p. 78

The sea battle took place at Quiberon near Lorient in the autumn of 56 B.C. The Romans slashed the rigging of the Venetic ships with long-handled sickles; and the Celtic seamen's fate was sealed when the wind dropped, allowing their becalmed pontones to be captured one by one by the handier, oar-powered Roman ships. The Veneti were ruthlessly punished for their revolt, and the Morini and Menapii later suffered the same fate.

-- Source: Peter Wilcox, Rome's Enemies (2): Gallic & British Celts (Oxford: Osprey, 1985), p. 38.

I guess the Latin word for the Celtic ships would be "pontones," but I like the Celtic sounding "curragh" much better. I think such hulking oak ships would have a relatively high defense value, but not a terribly good attack value -- and more transport capability than mediteranean galleys. Maybe shorter movement (to simulate the tactical advantage provided by oars), but could venture into seas without sinking (to simulate their superiour seaworthiness)?

 

[SaorGael]

Hi, I am a Celtic historian, and I noticed your thread here. I was searching for curraghs and found this. That picture of the Pretani (picts) in the curragh is great! I am a fan of Civilization as well.

To the point: Those Gallish boats may have been curraghs, but most curraghs were made with animal hides. They were very light, fast, and easy to build. A twenty-five footer would take about a week to build in the real world. From the Gallish boats the vikings patterned their famous dragonships (albiet on a smaller scale).

The Irish frequently used curraghs to invade Roman Britain, and Niall of the Nine Hostages invaded Gaul with them in the late 4th century. Ireland was said to have a fleet of about fifty trade curraghs, which were probably the larger kind. Irish mariners were so skilled that the Vikings often hired them to sail their longships on long voyages. St. Brendan the Navigator travelled far over the ocean on them (even if he probably did not reach America), so they were definetely seaworthy.

By the way, the Roman fleet that beat the Gallic fleet was probably manned by other Gauls who were allied with the Romans. This is according to the historians Tim Newark and Peter Berresford Ellis, who scoff at the idea of the "landlubbery" Romans beating such excellent mariners. I am inclined to agree; in the First Punic War the Romans were known for terrible sea tactics.

Sorry I took so much space. I hope you can find this useful.

 

[computerdude113]

That's quite usefull. Gives me an idea too. Since you say they were very sea-worthy, how about making them 1 move per turn units, with little a/d, but give them basically no movement restrictions. Make them a UU

I also am digging the color pic.

 

[Camber]

I would recommend against giving them unrestricted access to Oceans. In the early game, sea barriers are a major element of the game. Ships are still able to make it across them, but only if they are lucky. Which is exactly the was it was in real life: the dragonships and curraghs may have been capable of crossing the Atlantic, but it seems that only a few navigators had the luck and will to do it.

I like the idea of adding a heavy oak ship in the game that has a higher defense value. They certainly look sturdier than the mediterranean ships designed for relatively calmer waters.

 

[Yabanjin]

Either the Pictish or the Veneti boat would be welcome... Both would be great, but probably too much to expect.

 

[SaorGael]

I'm glad everyone found the information useful.

I think if you are right. Anyone waiting for the Celts to get good press in mainstream media will probably be disappointed. Most historians are not very sympathetic to the Celts. I like Civilization because it actually acknowledges them. The only thing I don't like is that the Celts are given despotism as their form of government when they were actually democratic.

Most historians believe Caesar and other ancient sources word-for-word, even though most are nonsense (ancient sources say the Irish were, among other things, vampires and cannibals, and that Irish cows were known to explode from overeating).

The entire belief about human sacrifices are traced back to 2 or 3 references by ancient writers who weren't even there! These were simply quoted again and again by other historians, making it appear that there are many sources. Most preserved bodies are on the Celtic-German border, making it questionable as to which society did it. There is only one reference to sacrifice in the Irish sagas, and then it is presenting it as an abnormality.

As for Caesar, he was a notorious liar. Early in his career, he insisted that the Britons were "quite advanced". Later he reversed and said the "noble savages" stuff to support his invasion.