Still, the US probably has the most democratic system around, currently - let alone for a country of hundreds of millions of people.
On democracy promoting the voting power of citizens
- Thread starter Kyriakos
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Still, the US probably has the most democratic system around, currently - let alone for a country of hundreds of millions of people.
caketastydelish
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Speaking as an American, I honestly don't agree in any capacity whatsoever.
sophie
Break My Heart
On what basis?
Wouldn't even the second half of the post be enough to deter you? Anyway, you might prefer Indonesia.
caketastydelish
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Are you serious? America is better than Indonesia and is therefore the most democratic country on earth ?
You are asking me if I am serious, and then present the above as what I posted.
Rg339
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I prefer America to Indonesia. I dunno if it has the most democratic system around, though. I imagine some non-EU(don’t have to follow Brussels) Western European countries could give the US a run for our money.
People are emotional about the ruling. At least momentarily, I don’t think it’s expected many Americans are going to have a sunny outlook on government.
While trying to maintain neutrality, I would say yeah, I still feel pretty fortunate to be American.
Britain itself has its issues, and in many ways it is relying on precedent (which can be fleeting, as shown in this case) far more than the US. And the society there has become more toxic, rapidly.
Regardless of problems in the US, it is impressive (and the only case) that a country of 1/3 of a billion people, still functions democratically (which was my point, and not that cryptically either). In the end, though, some states clearly sail towards a different port.
Lexicus
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I can name a dozen countries off the top of my head that are more democratic than the US
More progressive doesn't mean more democratic; democratic ties to popular voting and representation playing a meaningful role. If (say) some very conservative US state became (hypothetical) its own country, and it was very democratic, you'd expect its laws to become more conservative than those of the current US.
An example of a country that arguably is more democratic, but far more conservative, would be Switzerland.
An example of a country that arguably is more democratic, but far more conservative, would be Switzerland.
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
Democracy is power to the people. Not just power to a subgroup of the people, even if that subgroup forms a majority. For the people to have power, all people must be able to participate in the decision-making - and that only happens if the the rights of those outside the majority are safeguarded, so that they are free to act, and the powers of the majority consequently limited - otherwise the majority can take their power to silence all opposition and rule as a new oligarchy, and democracy dies.
America has abolished one by one restraints on the power of their predominant social group, concentrating power in their hands, and as a direct result deprived countless citizens of their right to vote, created enough hurdles to votes that far more can't afford to, have created electoral boundary that allows the haves to keep power even without a majority of the vote,
It's a partial democracy at best, and a failing if not failed one at worse. Far from the the most democratic nation.
America has abolished one by one restraints on the power of their predominant social group, concentrating power in their hands, and as a direct result deprived countless citizens of their right to vote, created enough hurdles to votes that far more can't afford to, have created electoral boundary that allows the haves to keep power even without a majority of the vote,
It's a partial democracy at best, and a failing if not failed one at worse. Far from the the most democratic nation.
Rg339
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I could debate, and bring up numerous problems that hinder democratic expression in the US, but I expect numerous others will be happy to do so.
I would rather add I that I appreciate the perspective added, especially during an emotional moment when much pushback is likely to be received.
Democracy literally is a system where everyone who has the identity of citizen (part of the Demos) has power - to vote. While it can be theorized just what safeguards there should be, the actual system is outside and distinct from such.
You may have heard people arguing that (for example) if minority rights are not given primacy in the system, it can devolve to ochlocracy - but that itself isn't a political system, merely a dismissal of popular vote when it leads to rulers/laws one may not like.
Oligarchy is not the result of minorities not protected, although it may very easily feature such phenomena too. And (of course) there are various oligarchies operating within current democracies, including (but not limited to) the case of the US.
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Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
The moment the rights are not safeguarded for all, the power to vote of some begin to fade, and the notion that all have power to vote still vanishes.
Yes, what you describe was the initial theory of democracy. Which was immense progress for its time, but that was 2500 years ago. It is completely, utterly outdated now. Clinging to it as more democratic is the equivalent of claiming a biplane with balsa structure and paper wings is "more a plane" than a 787.
Yes, what you describe was the initial theory of democracy. Which was immense progress for its time, but that was 2500 years ago. It is completely, utterly outdated now. Clinging to it as more democratic is the equivalent of claiming a biplane with balsa structure and paper wings is "more a plane" than a 787.
I am not claiming that it is "more democratic", just that this is the meaning of democracy. Now what safeguards are added is a separate issue, and certainly I am all in favor of as many pro-minority/weak groups safeguards
caketastydelish
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Even by Kryiakos logic, America is not the most democratic because the popular vote is irrelevant.
I doubt this Kryiakos claimed "America is the most democratic"; usually when you have a logical function attached to a statement, such as "and", the expectation is that the reader will take it into account. For a country of at least the population of the US, it very likely is the most democratic.
Joij21
🔥Deny, Defend, Depose!🔥
Except America isn't really a democracy. It's more of a republic at the federal and state level, and more a direct democracy at the local town council. And that's assuming you even have a town council, because in cities a mayor operates things making those a bit more of a republic (although some city boroughs have local town council direct voting, it's complicated). It's also complicated even further due to the fact there is lots of localism here so different states each have their own constitutions with radically different rules and yes, even rights. Plus, there's also the individual town and city municipal charters and public ordinances. Oh, and county governments and towns/cities acting as the local county seat (a county capital), plus all the regular state capitols. Then there's D.C., incorporated territories, unincorporated territories, reservations, weird places where the federal government owns 80% of the land (like the southwest) and has all kind of area 51 type bases. Places where there are strange land management rights where like the land is owned by the federal government but is held in common (like the middle ages) so independent cattle ranches can ranch on the land (until the common status is revoked hence the Bundy standoff).
Hence it would more accurately be described as a federal democratic republic.
Lexicus
Deity
Yeah, and popular voting and representation does not play a very meaningful role in the US system. Our head of state can (and has been twice in the last 22 years) be elected with fewer votes than a losing candidate. The design of our national legislature means that even in the lower house, voters in rural states have disproportionate power. In the upper house, literally about a tenth of the population can elect a majority of the seats.
This is what I mean when I say the US is undemocratic. And these are features of the Constitutional system, not bugs - these would be problems even if the US government was working perfectly. When we talk about things like corruption, the power of special interests, etc. the picture becomes even worse.
I assume this alludes to white men or something like that, but this is simply not true. The US has not been abolishing restraints on political actions supported by a majority of the country. On the contrary, it is currently essentially impossible for voting majorities to enact a legislative agenda in the United States.
Lexicus
Deity
"It is the most democratic out of China, India, and the US" would have been a more concise way to type that
