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Open Sid Succession Game

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Spoonwood, May 5, 2017.

  1. Ray2

    Ray2 Chieftain

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    Never played an histographic game, so I will trust your experience on this.




    Nice, I didn't notice that.

    Yes, trade Mysticism. Try also to take all available cash in any trade, always (upgrades).

    Btw, the granary for the C city is for a Temple (I think we need it there), and then palace prebuild.



    You are right - usually, it's counterproductive. However, in my experience, especially on Sid, I found it very useful to focus the early worker actions to prepare the SF, and then to start roading to city-sites (and completing mostly roads afterwards with them). A crew of 3 works better for this.

    In our game however, I don't think we will have much land to settle outside of our little peninsula. Japan is expanding too fast.

    I am not even sure if it is a good idea to waste our resources (pop) for corrupt, far away cities (like near the jungle area), that will be difficult to defend. Maybe send a settler for the luxuries mostly.
     
  2. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I don't think we have time for a temple in that city. I think it better to just pre-build The Great Library. The Great Library will function as culture anyways.
     
  3. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Got it.
     
  4. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    0 - 2310 BC:

    Deal 1:

    upload_2017-5-15_0-37-17.png

    Deal 2:

    upload_2017-5-15_0-39-14.png

    Deal 3:

    upload_2017-5-15_0-40-32.png (see deal with Celts)

    Deal 4:

    upload_2017-5-15_0-41-43.png

    We do NOT have horses, nor iron, nor either resource close by. The nearest source lies past the jungle in the north towards America. None of our neighbors have learned Horseback Riding yet. Swap Granary pre-build to Palace pre-build.

    1 - 2270 BC America starts Temple of Artemis. Spot Egyptian borders to the east of America and send warrior there. The Celts now know Iron Working (I didn't sell it, hoping we might pick up a worker).

    2 - 2230 BC A - Granary -> Settler. B - Settler -> Granary? Japanese complete Oracle. Mayans complete Colossus. Meet Arabia who lacks The Wheel, Alphabet, and Iron Working. Hold off on trades, since they almost always research Polytheism. Kagoshima's borders expand. Send settler to spot to grab the BGs for C.

    3 - 2190 BC Start moving warrior towards C.

    4 - 2150 BC Inca start Temple of Artemis. Meet Egypt who lacks Alphabet. Split up workers. All will road and then move towards C to develop it.

    5 - 2110 BC Arabs start Temple of Artemis. Make a deal:

    upload_2017-5-15_1-3-9.png

    6 - 2070 BC Meet the Maya:

    upload_2017-5-15_1-7-43.png

    Japan and the Inca have Horseback Riding. A - settler -> settler. Send this settler towards a coastal spot. Found D. I've put a question mark by it's name, as I'm not sure if it's too liable to flip given that C can manage The Great Library:

    upload_2017-5-15_1-10-3.png

    Start moving all warriors back to the homeland, since we now have all of the contacts.

    7 - 2030 BC Make two deals. The first:

    upload_2017-5-15_1-12-47.png

    and the second:

    upload_2017-5-15_1-13-35.png

    8 - 1990 BC Found E, which starts on a worker.

    9 - 1950 BC Have no choice but to trespass a bit on Incan lands.

    10 - 1910 BC Egypt starts Temple of Artemis. Make another deal:

    upload_2017-5-15_1-22-33.png

    I don't move the two new workers, nor the settler, leaving this for the next player.

    I think the settler should go to the brown spot which got marked with a black dot in the dot map above. It's near a forest. The slaves... I don't know... maybe just move them to the better spots near C to start developing it.

    I suggest a MAX run on Literature once we learn Writing. No one knows Writing or Mathematics yet.
     
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  5. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    And the save:
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Ray2

    Ray2 Chieftain

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    :thumbsup: for the optimal trading. +4 workers and their cash - I couldn't imagine anything better than this.


    Well, there go our upgrade plans...

    AI on Sid is fast to connect resources that we could trade for, but still this makes an early war almost prohibitive now.



    I don't like this at all (that's why the temple suggestion). A potential domino-flip would mean game over (not that we are good now). Anyway, lets' take the risk.



    I think max on Lit. is the best choice. If the prebuild is not ready we could just stop completely research for the final turns (so as to avoid demands).

    The biggest risk here would be to lose the GL on a SunTzu cascade.

    I can't have a look at the save (Wednesday probably), but the lack of iron + our very average core, makes me wonder if it is a good idea continuing this game...
     
  7. Ray2

    Ray2 Chieftain

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    Hey Spoonwood, I had a look at the save.

    Do you think it is worth continuing this game? No iron, cramped core, no good land to settle, and Samurais in the 1st war, all make the game more than challenging, especially for Sid.

    Tech wise we will be fine for a while, even if we do miss the GL, but the rest does not look good at all.

    Should we 'expand' towards the jungle area?

    Flip risk of D is relatively low at the moment (~3.5%), but of course it will increase.

    Thoughts?
     
  8. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I say that we play it out and see what happens. I think that we would do well to expand towards the jungle, if we can.
     
  9. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    With respect to our resource situation,

    1. Iron might relocate. We never know about this.

    2. We have EIGHT naturally forested squares within our cultural borders with perhaps another on the way here soon, if we can manage that spot that I referenced before. Rubber and uranium may appear in forests. So, I do not think it too improbable that we have one of these (but we have to get there).

    3. We have two hills. Saltpeter, coal, and aluminum may appear in hills. So, we might have one or more than one of these resources.

    4. We have a mountain. Saltpeter, coal, and uranium may appear in mountains. So, we might have one.

    5. If we can manage to settle near some of that marsh, that may also work out well. Both rubber and oil may appear in marsh.

    We also may well trade for some of the other resources if we say have a harbor and can get a curragh to clear some of the black towards The Maya, Egpyt, and America. Maybe city E should get swapped to a curragh for this purpose?

    I hear Ray's concern about fighting Samurai. But, it also potentially makes for an opportunity, if we have only Japan bordering our towns (or do we consider gifting them a border town to make them our only immediate neighbors?). If Japan makes for our only neighbor, then we might declare war on someone more distant and sign a military alliance with Japan. Then Japan will fight them with their Samurai. And samurai sound less daunting if we can manage to get to artillery proper or tanks. But, maybe we don't need to do that also.

    Oh... and with respect to settling, I do think that settling towards the jungle and marsh should get prioritized. I don't believe that anyone will look to settle our open spots in the south... though if we see a Japanese settler or anyone has any concern about this, then send a settler that way and have a readiness to plant in an odd spot if a foreign settler appears.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
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  10. Ray2

    Ray2 Chieftain

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    Got it.
     
  11. Ray2

    Ray2 Chieftain

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    Spoonwood, you are talking about coal, rubber, oil, uranium, aluminium... We are never going to see these resources in this game, unless if we expand (= war).

    That's the problem here. Our core is pathetic. No luxuries, no resources, and with Japan threatening to flip our cities.

    You can't compete with Sid AIs with the poor economy we will have, after the GL expires (assuming that we get it of course). To make things worse, this is a pangaea, and stealing is very tricky, and in our case, with no expansion, it will be almost prohibitive (poor military - no luxes/resources to buy allies).

    For all these reasons, an early war was mandatory in our situation - but we are unlucky (no iron).



    I agree with this, which leads me to ask, why did you settle D and E there, instead of settling spots that Japan would contend first? ;)


    I wouldn't be so sure that they will not settle there (especially the spot 4SW of Rome). The good thing is that we can make it there first, BUT we should settle there as soon as possible after Japan has Map Making.
     
  12. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Well, we could use the disconnect-reconnect trade for luxuries/resource techinque which I mentioned above and get the AIs techs, lump sums, and gpt for the cost of workers.

    Alternatively, we could give away The Great Library city the turn before we learn Education to someone weak and then try to take it back when we believed the AIs had a certain tech position.

    Additionally, if we use "What's the Big Picture" every-time we learn a tech from The Great Library, we might manage to pick up a fair amount of gold from selling tech (though... who knows at this point).

    I also don't see why we couldn't try to steal from those who aren't our neighbors.

    D got founded for the BGs for the city pre-building The Great Library.

    I think with E I thought the production might help.

    Good luck Ray.
     
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  13. Ray2

    Ray2 Chieftain

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    Pre-turn: Send Settler north, move the 2 workers.


    T1 (1870 BC): Japan has a settler near the sugar, north of C. Fortunately we have a W nearby - he will try to block them.



    T2 (1830 BC): Move the W on a potentially interesting site for Japan.



    T3 (1790 BC): It works. The Japanese settler moves N - but he will settle probably there. Still, it leaves us the spot, NE-E-E from C, to settle (but with high flip risk - our now 'disbanded' roading crew would have never allowed this to happen ;)).

    Arabia has Maths, Maya Monarchy.

    Our NE Warrior discovers silks in the jungle near the gems. We must settle there ASAP.



    T4 (1750 BC): As expected, Japanese found the city there. I leave the site, NE-E-E from C, for later. Settling N and near the luxuries in the jungle has priority.

    We discover Writing. Research max Lit (60% - ...50 turns).

    I establish embassies with Japan (35 g.), Egypt (55 g.), Celts (38 g.), Inca (84 g.) (I think we should open embassies with the rest later).






    Rome: S-->S.

    We are first to Writing. Now, I could buy Maths + 37g. from the Arabs for Writing + H.Riding, but I will not do it. The longer we hold on our monopoly the more chances for the GL we will have.



    T5 (1725 BC): No changes in the techs known by others.



    T6 (1700 BC): Still the same tech situation around.

    D: Worker-->Temple (can be changed later, but I strongly advise Temples everywhere. We need the happiness, and even the small boost in culture will reduce flip chances. We should build workers from our cities with Granaries.)

    Japanese settler appears near D. I bet he is heading for the spot 4SW from A.



    T7 (1675 BC): Maths has been traded around. We still have the monopoly on Writing.

    Now, we can have Maths + 120 g. from Inca, which is not bad, but let's hold a bit more.

    B: Granary-->Settler

    Our curragh now is heading north, to explore Egyptian waters, as per Spoonwood's suggestion.



    T8 (1650 BC): Maya come in the interturn, asking for a Maths for Writing trade. For the first time a civ is cautious towards us (maybe because we didn't trade Writing :p).

    Now writing is known by 3 others. I buy Maths + 89g. from the Arabs for Writing.

    Americans have settled near the gems. Let's try at least to take the silks.

    B at size 4 requires 50% lux, with science at 40%. Let B complete the Settler and it will produce workers afterwards.

    E: Worker-->Temple.



    T9 (1625 BC): A: Settler-->Settler. Settler heading to the spot Japan wants (4SW from A).

    Buy an American worker + cash for Writing.



    T10 (1600 BC): F 13789qzcbmyt founded. F: Temple.

    Our Settler in the north is heading for the silks.

    Settler in the south in place to settle next turn.

    Workers near C have roaded and 2 are chopping forests for D's temple. After that all workers in the area should start mining for C.

    We could trade Alpha to the Celts for cash, if needed.

    Btw, the Celts don't know anyone else. If they were not on an island we would be their target for a sneak attack (AI with no other contacts, will declare 100% after finishing expansion).
     

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  14. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Got it.
     
  15. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    0 - 1600 BC Wake warrior in F and start moving it back towards C. Build the rest of the embassies. Swap tiles in B so that it grows this turn.

    1 - 1575 BC B settler-worker. Found G. It starts on a catapult. I favor a worker or two before a temple.

    3 - 1525 BC Philosophy and Code of Laws are known. Found H. B - worker -> worker.

    4 - 1500 BC Japan boots us, but this actually puts our warriors in a better position. Maya and Inca know Map Making. Celts know Monarchy, but still don't know Alphabet.

    6 - 1450 BC Acquire Furs from Japan for 150 gold or so. Sell Alphabet to The Celts for all of their lump sum.

    Found I:

    upload_2017-5-18_17-31-7.png

    7 - 1425 BC Japan boots us. This actually works out alright, since sending another settler up near the jungle area doesn't seem like it will get us another city. The Inca have Construction. Purchase gems from The Inca for 120 gold. I swear I had to pay a bit more for Furs from Japan.

    8 - 1400 BC The Maya start building The Great Library and The Inca have Literature also. I stop here.

    I don't see any point in trying to build The Great Library NOW. I don't think we'll get it. We are one city away from The Forbidden Palace. I suggest that using the luxury/resource gpt for techs and gold makes for our best bet now.

    And the save:
     

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  16. BlackHat

    BlackHat Chieftain

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    If nobody minds, I'll jump in with a got it. Now to catch up on the situation...
     
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  17. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Go for it Blackhat!
     
  18. BlackHat

    BlackHat Chieftain

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    Preflight:

    The celts have monarchy and lack writing and math. Easy money. Cleo has 28 gold, and a worker and is the only other person without writing. I initially favors selling it to get what we can, but then I noticed Egypt is the score leader. Arabia lacks monarchy but have philosophy, CoL, and Construction. Japan lacks construction and has philosophy, and CoL. America has the reverse of Japan.

    Trades:
    Get monarchy and 3 gold from celts for writing and math.
    Get philosophy, CoL, and Construction plus one gold from Arabia for Monarchy

    Recheck status:
    Japan has 96 gold to trade for Construction. Maya and Inca are only up map making and lit, and there's no opportunity to trade either. No one else has The Egypt deal is still on the table, with monarchy and construction now available as trade fodder - I still favor writing if we're going to trade here. And America can trade 9 gold for Philosophy or CoL. Japan knows America, so it's extremely likely that they will trade for Construction next turn anyway, so even though it's not full price and they're a neighbor...

    So I'm going to pause and ask for opinions here. My instinct is to deal with Egypt and Japan to get the gold/worker. Japan especially seems like a no brainer. That pulls laggards back up so that they're researching potentially useful tech, and reduces the opportunities for other civs to pull 2 for 1's that cut us out of the deal. We might also consider gifting Philosophy and CoL to the celts so they are more likely to research something useful. But I'm under the impression that this is non conventional thinking, and I'm not sure if the tech pace (and extortion) of SID changes the calculus, so I figured a brief discussion would be instructive. I'll start playing tonight if nobody weighs in.

    What do you guys think?

    ETA: given that we're not planning to go after the GL, research go to zero?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
  19. BlackHat

    BlackHat Chieftain

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    I opened the save to get a first impression before reading any of the analysis. Ugh. I was relieved to read the thread and discover that everyone else thinks this is a bad SID start too.

    Sorry to bombard you with analysis, but this is both my first SG, and first SID game, and I'm catching up. A lot of this is just to work out my plan, but please smack me if I say something stupid.

    Settlers
    There are 2 settlers on the map, and I'm having trouble figuring out a good plan for them.

    Even without considering trade route cutting, this simply looks like the best available spot. It won't be a powerhouse in any way shape or form, but I don't see a better use anywhere. But given the situation, this seems like a good place to start discussing last resorts.

    I tend to agree, but there's a second settler and the only alternative is to join him to a city. Given that choice, I propose to walk him across the swamp alone and hope to get a useful corner up north. But maybe he can speed up the FP and make up for the lost shields. We could immediately get 4 raw shields out of the forests in the south east. Anybody else got an idea?

    Overall Strategy
    Short term -
    1. Cut research to zero since lit is not required tech. It wastes a lot of research, but that looks like a sunk cost now that lit is not urgently useful. We can still get a discount later.
    2. Get to ~15 native workers ASAP, use workers to mine BG squares and chop forrest. Prioritize improvements around C. Avoid improving non bonus tiles beyond road unless forest chop already completed. 3. Get some culture.
    4. Swap Palace to FP as soon as 10th city founded (~16 turns left at the current build rate).
    5. Get to Republic. If we're planning on using trade route breaking to recover then it should be no problem to manage WW by obtaining DOW's from the AI. If we go to zero research we should have income for entertainment if necessary.

    Mid term -
    1. Build ~ 10 warriors, 10 catapults. Trade for iron. Upgrade warriors.
    2a. Trick Inca into DOW. Sign America, Egypt, and Japan against them to deny the Inca allies that can hurt us. Bleed Japan.
    and/or
    2b. Trick Celts into DOW to leader farm. Use leader to move palace to peninsula town, use disconnect/reconnect to collect gold and obtain iron cheaply while building warriors.
    3. Trick Japan into DOW.

    Long term -
    1. Conquer Japan
    2. ?
    3. Profit.

    Also - if we want to continue to leave trade route breaking on the shelf, we need to pursue a bleeding edge, high risk strategy now. Possibly an immediate shift from culture to military and starting the wars with both the Inca and the Celts in the next 20 turns. I guess it might be possible to turtle and try for a diplomatic/space victory, but what's the fun in that? Also, after getting the FP going we need to be willing to give away the two jungle towns if necessary. They can't be defended and make us vulnerable to America and Egypt.
     
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  20. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I hadn't noticed this (I probably felt too frustrated by the AIs picking up Literature). Good catch Blackhat!

    I'd say pick up the worker from Egypt and hold off on the other deals. Maybe Japan picks up Map Making here soon enough. The AIs usually prefer Map Making first, so I wouldn't worry about them researching something else.

    Yes, I think so. It's still cheaper to purchase than research, and I don't think we'll make it to Currency first or in a timely manner if we researched it.

    1. The southern grassland not within our cultural borders. This gives us a few more sea squares over the long-term for commerce.

    2. My other idea was the forest square on the river which currently is getting chopped. I'm not so sure that this spot is worth it. It only makes for one more sea square. And it would take a productive square away from other cities. So, maybe save the settler for later. Though, with an extra city more tiles get used earlier. Your opinion goes before mine.

    With respect to long-term planning, we might want to consider fighting Egypt first. We have smaller borders AND they would have to send troops through the jungle to attack our jungle/tundra cities. Maybe we could use boats or an RoP to get our troops to those cities? I think we could have the reinforcement advantage over Egypt.
     
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