Opening both Piety and Rationalism

[Aaron90495]

I was experimenting with a religion-heavy science game as the Celts recently and decided to open Piety for the half-cost shrines and temples, even though I knew I would open Rationalism later. The result was amazing: I got crazy faith generation very quickly and was able to get the Grand Temple quite early. I was playing ICS, so this tactic worked wonders and helped me get enough faith to overwhelm the other religions (I ultimately had it in 40 or so cities).

So I pose this question: is taking the Piety opener and later Rationalism an effective strategy when playing wide? I've only played one game, but the results were great. What do you guys think?

 

[Browd]

I've done this. Can work well, as you describe. Doesn't even have to be a wide game, although it is really attractive there. I would not recommend going 2 policies deep in Piety (for Organized Religion - +1 for each shrine and temple). You would be burning 2 policies that you will be abandoning when you switch to Rationalism; the second policy would be better spent in Patronage or Commerce (or maybe Honor, if you are going for a fight-y game).

There was a thread on this not long ago.

 

[Heretiv]

Shurely you cannot have piety and rationalism open at the same time?
So you have to finish off piety and then get into the rationalism policies.
Apologies if I have this one wrong, but I think that is how it works.
When you are trying to cultural victory it is no hardship to do both trees since you have to finish off 5 of them anyway. Other types of win I imagine this is not so favourable.

 

[Light Cleric]

Shurely you cannot have piety and rationalism open at the same time?
So you have to finish off piety and then get into the rationalism policies.
Apologies if I have this one wrong, but I think that is how it works.
When you are trying to cultural victory it is no hardship to do both trees since you have to finish off 5 of them anyway. Other types of win I imagine this is not so favourable.

The point he's making is to just use the Piety opener until you can open up Rationalism. Many times, you'll end up with your 7th social policy before you hit the Renaissance. By the time you roll around to Rationalism, you'll have gotten most of the benefits from the Piety opener anyway.

 

[omnivore]

Shurely you cannot have piety and rationalism open at the same time?
So you have to finish off piety and then get into the rationalism policies.
Apologies if I have this one wrong, but I think that is how it works.
When you are trying to cultural victory it is no hardship to do both trees since you have to finish off 5 of them anyway. Other types of win I imagine this is not so favourable.

Once you open Rationalism you lose the benefits from Piety. There's no law that you have to finish Piety, or any other line, before starting a new one.

Even when trying a cultural victory, it would seem to slow it down a bit, but, at the end of a game I had recently, I had an extra policy at the end anyway while I was building Utopia Project, that I threw into Honor because I had nothing else to do with it. So it's not a deal breaker by any means.

 

[Heretiv]

Once you open Rationalism you lose the benefits from Piety

Oh right.. for some reason I didnt understand it this way, but now it is clear - using Rationalism wipes out all the stuff you got in Piety.

 

[Browd]

Which is why, if you go that way, you really don't want to invest more than one policy (the opener) in Piety.

 

[Gort]

Does the piety policy still count as a policy for the purpose of increasing the cost of new policies, or do you get a kind of "refund" for it when you lose it?

 

[Browd]

You get no rebates, refunds or other compensation for killing your Piety policy(ies) when you take Rationalism. You made that choice, you live with it.

 

[Crafty Bison]

You also spend a turn in anarchy, CIV style. Probably not that big, but always feels really bad anyway.

 

[Hpuk]

Would be an interesting option to go for if you were originally aiming for Rationalism as your second tree, but messed up your timing so you have to take one extra policy before getting Rationalism.

 

[Bobby Digital]

seems like something that would be best for marathon games, yes?

 

[Wargizmo]

My gut feeling is you're better off choosing one or two policies from patronage and allying a religious city state or two rather than wasting policies on piety which you'll lose as soon as you hit rationalism

 

[Light Cleric]

My gut feeling is you're better off choosing one or two policies from patronage and allying a religious city state or two rather than wasting policies on piety which you'll lose as soon as you hit rationalism

Well, the point is that you only take the opener. It helps get Temples and Shrines out in time to get the faith for a religion, especially if you went wide. If you wait for Patronage, that's all the way in Medieval, by which point there probably won't any religions available on higher difficulties.

 

[cardith_lorda]

Have you done comparisons on the opportunity cost of taking the religious opener? Like could the bonus from a different line make up for the non-temple rush?

 

[tommynt]

So I pose this question: is taking the Piety opener and later Rationalism an effective strategy when playing wide? I've only played one game, but the results were great. What do you guys think?

the question is: what u want achieve? Want a sub 220 turn spaceship win - no its no good idea.
Want just overwhelm whole world with your religion and go big and still tech kinda fast - just go for 3 into peity build steele and temples as 1. builds (maybe after granny) in every city and use your faith to buy pagodas and mosques in every city - once u got like 10 of each u generate huge numbers of faith even without peity and can go into rati.

But if u play good (ie dont need to many turns to progress to later eras) u have to remember that the faith buildings get more and more expensive - so u need a lot of faith and u need it fast - so try to take peity starters as 4th and 5th sp (classical era! needed!) after collective rule and expand early and quick

But that u speak about great temple is make me think u r clueless - why d u spend that many shields into it when the +8 faith are created by your normal buildings in a single city aswell?
better use the production for a useful wonder or 5 more settlers ..

 

[tommynt]

Well, the point is that you only take the opener. It helps get Temples and Shrines out in time to get the faith for a religion, especially if you went wide. If you wait for Patronage, that's all the way in Medieval, by which point there probably won't any religions available on higher difficulties.

nah the really good sp in the tree is the 2nd and I just love the with ci like neverending golden ages aswell

And alliying cs is possible without patronage tree aswell if people havent known yet - its about fullfilling the quests ... the sps are just a slim help and should only be takken if nothing else useful is there

 

[chazzycat]

I have found this strategy pretty successful for wide empires as well (on immortal). The idea is to get an early, strong religion that doesn't require a UB, or luck with CS...all you need is space to expand. I'll usually go 2 policies deep because the second policy really helps jack up your faith output, but timing is everything on this. It's pointless if it's too late, since the point is to get the good beliefs and early spread. IMO it's best to open it ASAP after collective rule. You want to have the religion spreading as you spam your cities so they all convert very quickly, so timing is important.