Optimal city size/ best uses of production?

[Sportyatuncw06]

I always try to grow my cities as large as possible. The main problem with this is that is leads to an almost never ending cycle of building happy/health modifying buildings. I will lose track and end up in the industrial era with no army and a bunch of large cities, but very low production. So without any specific examples are there and general rules employed or do you allow resources and the map dictate? In other words, is happy/health buildings worth building for 3 or 4 extra population outside of you capital and 2 or 3 other best cities, or would running specialist and devoting that production towards military/wealth or science be beneficial?

Also, I very rarely use production for research/wealth/culture, only near endgame when outcome is determined and I don't need units or building, or if I have crashed the economy with war or expansion, or in need of a certain tech in a hurry, or popping borders, or going for cultural victory. I see lots of people using production for wealth/science early and often. SO when is it better to production for science and when is it better to use it for wealth and move the research slider up?

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

City size all depends on the resources of the map. I usually don't grow them past 13 or so. Past that you don't get enough bang for your buck, because you usually have way to many farms and not enough mines/cottages/workshops.

 

[deathturnip]

It is almost always better to build wealth than science because you can put that gold through beaker multipliers like libraries. Actually, no situation comes to mind where research is better. They must exist though.

Building wealth for me is used when I can not afford more military. Switch the production cities to wealth and try to rebuild the economy in others. Or, in the rare cases when your commerce cities have no more buildings to make, obviously boosting the tech rate there helps.

 

[DampRain]

Prioritise wealth. Once you are at 100% beakers and earning gold, build beakers instead of wealth (without going below 100% beakers). This is under assumption of cottage fueling your beakers.

As for production problems, slavery, turns people into production. Can also go for kremlin and rush buy. Or have some proper dedicated production centres where you don't spam every building under the sun.

 

[Gwynnja]

If you want to build your army up better and still have large cities, use hereditary rule to solve happiness issues or conquer happiness resources rather than building buildings.

 

[Moroktonos]

I basically cottage everything other than hills or resources that need mines/quarries/farms. I might build a watermill from time to time, and a farm if I need food to work other tiles. I typically almost never use windmills or workshops. AM I missing out here?

I always try to grow my cities as large as possible. The main problem with this is that is leads to an almost never ending cycle of building happy/health modifying buildings. I will lose track and end up in the industrial era with no army and a bunch of large cities, but very low production. So without any specific examples are there and general rules employed or do you allow resources and the map dictate?

Hmm...

Try designating production cities. Really. Cottages are best in lusher territory. If I remember, Dave McW advises that unless a city can feed about 10 (and that's quite a few) cottages prebio, you might want to consider using the city for production. Production cities need granaries, forges, and courthouses (if you're large enough), and the ubercheap happiness/health buildings if needed (theatres, temples, harbors). Situationally, libraries (for early scientists), and unis (oxford desperation) are useful. MARKETS/GROCERS ARE ALMOST ALWAYS close to USELESS in such cities you're REALLY REALLY REALLY DESPERATE for health/happiness and have the necessary resources. Really. These are just so darn expensive! If you're not planning a war, these high production cities can still contribute meaningfully to your economy by building wealth.

Damprain/deathturnip gave good advice. I agree. Build wealth instead of markets.

Also, some tiles probably aren't worth working (plains/coastal tiles come to mind). Make sure your pop growth is going into something worthwhile.

 

[kaltorak]

how does this work?
"better to build wealth than science because you can put that gold through beaker multipliers like libraries"

I know building wealth is better, bc i read it a lot. But how does the gold get throught library multiplier?

 

[DampRain]

I know building wealth is better, bc i read it a lot. But how does the gold get throught library multiplier?

At 100% science slider every commerce turned into beakers. At 50%, 50% to gold, 50% to beakers.

Short demonstration.

I have 10 commerce, 5 hammers.
Maintenance Costs 5 gold per turn.
I have a library.
I can either 50% slider science 6.25 bpt (5*1.25), + 5bpt building research
=11.25

OR

I can build wealth and put slider science at 100% giving 12.5 bpt.

Thus I have 1.25 more (a bit over 10%) bpt overall.

What makes this far more powerful is when you have bureaucracy capital + oxford + academy.

 

[kaltorak]

Thanks, good example. So it's not really that the hammers get the city science modifiers, but that the gold earned through hammers lets you put the slider higher into science and therefore more beakers get the city modifiers.

Or to sum up:
-hammers dont get city wealth or beaker modifiers
-Cities have more beakes than wealth modifiers.
-therefor its better to use hammers for gold and slider for beakers, since slider beakers get city modifiers.

is that right?

 

[lucifero]

doesn't that really depend on what buildings u have in the city?

for example, if u have library+university only, i guess the slider will favor science over gold?

but, if u have only market+grocer+bank, the slider would instead favor gold over science?

 

[DampRain]

Or to sum up:
-hammers dont get city wealth or beaker modifiers
-Cities have more beakes than wealth modifiers.
-therefor its better to use hammers for gold and slider for beakers, since slider beakers get city modifiers.

is that right?

Simple answer, yes.
Longer answer,if you go for a rush buy strategy, then you'll end up with equal or more gold modifiers than beakers. This only tends to happen if you have the kremlin and even then, I would not suggest tearing down everything that isn't a cottage , due to growth times, etc.
Also, when you get education, if you are not beelining steel/rifling for war, it is advisable to previously have built libraries in your production cities so you can get the 6 universities (standard size map) needed for oxford. Similarly for wall street if you need it.

for example, if u have library+university only, i guess the slider will favor science over gold?

but, if u have only market+grocer+bank, the slider would instead favor gold over science?

Very true, however, there tend to be far fewer cases where you would be doing this. Mainly because while you can trade gold for tech, you can only do it once, where as tech can be traded multiple times . Thus you would tend to favour beakers.
Some exceptions:
a) Rushbuying
b) mass upgarding
c) stockpiling for diplomacy

Small note:
The wealth/beakers you build using hammers does not benefit at all from the multipliers, excluding hammer based multipliers which are applied before being building beakers.
IE. Building wealth benefits from forge, not lib or bank.

 

[Fluroscent]

You rarely have more gold multipliers than science empirewide. This is mainly because libraries are cheap and early. But also because gold can be earned in more alternative ways than beakers, especially through trade, while beakers are harder to find outside the slider.

 

[§L¥ Gµ¥]

-optimal city size varies with difficulty because the cap changes. Generally speaking, try to grow them as big as possible, as more worked tiles means more productive cities in wealth, specialists, or hammers. Remember worked land is the base of your science/commerce/production, and this is what's applied to the multipliers. So the bigger the base, the more you get out of the multiplier buildings.

-building the happiness and health buildings are important, but not as important as your immediate goals. If you're raising an army and need those hammers for more units, then obviously you can delay those buildings until afterward. If you're in the liberalism race and need that little boost in science, building wealth or research might be the right choice as well. Remember the Organized Religion civic, it helps immensely when building these structures, and chances are if you are using that civic, you aren't warring or planning a war just yet.

-on building wealth or science: it is infinitely valuable to do so, especially at higher levels. As has been stated previously, wealth is more efficient, but research comes sooner, so it has it's uses as well. Furthermore, the hammer-based economy is entirely viable as a strategy for research, especially with the upgrades the workshops get under state property, caste system, chemistry and guilds. A single workshop still doesn't compete with a mature cottage, but it does more than a reasonable job in boosting your economy if coupled with something else.

A good example I'll point to about the use of building wealth is if I've got a massive empire and I'm trying to prevent my economy from tanking from the maintenance. I'll slip into OR, produce wealth in a few cities, build(or more often whip) the requisite courthouses, markets, libraries, or whatever, and switch the cities producing the wealth to the ones that have now completed their necessary structures. This will keep me competitive in the tech race while building the necessary infrastructure to keep growing. Building wealth allows you to keep founding new cities without sinking the economy, and empire size more than anything else assures you of remaining competitive as the game goes on.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You rarely have more gold multipliers than science empirewide. This is mainly because libraries are cheap and early. But also because gold can be earned in more alternative ways than beakers, especially through trade, while beakers are harder to find outside the slider.

I HAVE run into exceptions though, notably when spamming banks post-conquest in attempt to pay the bills. Banks are a better to % return than non-library science buildings IIRC, though of course if you HAVE an oxford site set up whipping unis can be worth it.

Here's guessing that you do *not* have a good oxford site ready if you've been spamming city conquests to that point. At least not yet.

The other time is in the mid-late renaissance. Here again, MGB = 100% while LUO is 75%. The academy/oxford might not be enough to win out there and it's worth at least checking things out, especially if you also put up wall street.