Optimal growth expansion timings

[monad]

First of all I'm usually playing on emperor, quick speed, large map.

I would like to know what are, in your experience/opinion, the optimal timings for expansion? (assume we don't care about barbs and standard speed as a reference). Specifically, I would like to know:

- starting build order in the capital (if greedy, I go worker, (buy scout), worker, settler)

- timings for the 3 expansions (for Tradition tree; mine are smt. like: 35, 55, 75)

- when do you get the NC (mostly, I get it after the first three cities at ~75, while purchasing library in the 3rd)

I feel this approach is far from optimal. I sometimes had better results with 1 food pumped city, rushing NC by turn 60, and placing the settler for the 1st expansion at the same turn.. Thanks for your help/advice.

 

[Janskey]

I usually have my NC up by turn 80 on standard speed, so 75 on quick seems a bit slow. Unless I'm playing an archipelago map, I start with building a scout. Settling the first city (or why not all of them) on a hill will help speed up production without sacrificing growth. I build my first settler, when it can be built in about 10 turns (~7 turns on quick).

 

[phillipwyllie]

Ideally you shouldn't be building workers, rather stealing them or preferably from barb camps. Once you have enough you can liberate those workers for huge influence, if you ally militaristic Cs then you wont need to build any units other than your initial archer.

 

[monad]

Thanks for the feedback. The timings I provided are already converted to standard speed. On Quick, I get the NC at ~50 anyway.

The worker stealing is quite tricky.. If you want to steal directly from a CS, you must wait for them to build one and gamble to not discover another civ by that time (to avoid the warmonger penalty). Ideally, like you said, is to take a worker from barbs, but for that you need to invest in army (at least an archer to take down the camp and another unit to defend the base). Also, you can only give the worker back immediately after clearing the camp (if that's what you prefer), so you won't draw any other advantage from it (also it depends on what CS type owned the worker, etc).

Can smb who plays on emperor or higher provide me their rough timings for settling the cities and at what time between the expansions do you go for the NC? What if you go full greed/risky mode for maximum growth/science prospects in mid-game (let's say at T100)? Thanks in advance!

 

[Janskey]

Just took a look on my last game, which I won T294 with science. This was on deity, so science might progress somewhat faster than on emperor (there's more stuff to steal + trade routes). First expo was found on turn 31 and the second on turn 46, using full tradition policywise. Probably not THE most optimal way, but works most of the time for me.

e. and I had only the 3 cities throughout the game

 

[monad]

Ok, I see. The 2nd settler did you hard-build (in main or expansion) or buy?

 

[Uzael36]

I typically play on Immortal, but have beaten Diety.

I generally build in this order; scout, scout, shrine, settler.

I steal 1 worker from a CS and 1 or 2 from a civ. For the most part, your warmonger penalty will be small. On Emperor, you'll likely need to build a worker in there some where, as it does take too long before CS and civ's have them. You might build the worker between the shrine and settler in that case.

After Settler, I'll build a granary and caravan.

 

[Janskey]

Hard-built both settlers in my capital, saved the money for library. It slows your capital's growth for a while, but you'll be growing extremely fast, when you start using some trade routes to bring food in. Especially when having only a few cities, huge population is a must.

 

[NoirSuede]

Thanks for the feedback. The timings I provided are already converted to standard speed. On Quick, I get the NC at ~50 anyway.

The worker stealing is quite tricky.. If you want to steal directly from a CS, you must wait for them to build one and gamble to not discover another civ by that time (to avoid the warmonger penalty). Ideally, like you said, is to take a worker from barbs, but for that you need to invest in army (at least an archer to take down the camp and another unit to defend the base). Also, you can only give the worker back immediately after clearing the camp (if that's what you prefer), so you won't draw any other advantage from it (also it depends on what CS type owned the worker, etc).

Can smb who plays on emperor or higher provide me their rough timings for settling the cities and at what time between the expansions do you go for the NC? What if you go full greed/risky mode for maximum growth/science prospects in mid-game (let's say at T100)? Thanks in advance!

Usually you need to have least 4 cities by T100, although that depends if you wanna go tall or wide. Also, to safely worker steal, park a unit (a scout should do) near the CS you wanna steal, wait till a worker shows up near the unit, declare war to the CS, move the unit to the worker to capture it, wait one turn (the reason you don't need to use a warrior/swordsman is because a scout can tank a hit from the CS's bombardment, and even if the scout dies, the CS usually won't try to chase the captured worker), move the worker outside the CS borders, and declare peace. In my recent game i did this after Babylon/Portugal/Austria found me and nobody got pissed.

 

[Chum]

Usually you need to have least 4 cities by T100, although that depends if you wanna go tall or wide. Also, to safely worker steal, park a unit (a scout should do) near the CS you wanna steal, wait till a worker shows up near the unit, declare war to the CS, move the unit to the worker to capture it, wait one turn (the reason you don't need to use a warrior/swordsman is because a scout can tank a hit from the CS's bombardment, and even if the scout dies, the CS usually won't try to chase the captured worker), move the worker outside the CS borders, and declare peace. In my recent game i did this after Babylon/Portugal/Austria found me and nobody got pissed.

You don't need to wait one turn. You can declare peace on same turn, and take zero hits. Although, even that's sub optimal. You can stay at war with a CS as long as you need to. Might as well stay at war and take 2 workers.

 

[monad]

Ok, I think I had a few things wrong. Just to clarify:

- if you steal a worker and declare peace on the same turn, do you still get the warmonger penalty from other civs?

- if you have discovered 1 civ while stealing the worker, does the penalty apply to only that civ or to all the others (which you haven't yet discovered)?

- so is it possible that no penalty is taken? is it only if the civ you discovered is a warmonger as well?

 

[Uzael36]

Ok, I think I had a few things wrong. Just to clarify:

- if you steal a worker and declare peace on the same turn, do you still get the warmonger penalty from other civs?

- if you have discovered 1 civ while stealing the worker, does the penalty apply to only that civ or to all the others (which you haven't yet discovered)?

- so is it possible that no penalty is taken? is it only if the civ you discovered is a warmonger as well?

You will get minor warmonger points. Unless you take the city or do it to multiple CS, it is a small penalty that almost all civ's ignore. You'll see things like "early concerns about possible warmongering" in some civ's status as a result, and it will go away. You can do this to one civ without too much trouble, though you might not want to steal from England, as she tends to hold a grudge much longer than most. Most civ's will ignore your early worker stealing quite fast. I've had some offer friendship within 5 turns of negotiating peace. Without taking a city, it is quite a small hit to your relations for most civ's.

Unless you wipe out all the civ's on your map before other continents discover your continent, it will remain a penalty, but it is a very minor one. Don't worry about it. I've had many games where I stole from a civ and CS without ever going to war. I think it may be a bit different than before BNW. In BNW, taking cities has more warmonger points than before, but declaring war has less penalties. At least this seems to be my observation.

At levels below Immortal, you will likely want to make one worker, but you should still steal a couple workers when you can. At least if you are trying to be optimal. Of course fun is also important, and if you don't like to do it, don't.

 

[phillipwyllie]

- if you steal a worker and declare peace on the same turn, do you still get the warmonger penalty from other civs?

Yes but only from those who you have met, you get warmonger score from DOWing and even more for capturing cities. You warmonger score with a particular civ is divided by their tolerance(on average by a factor of 20) to warmongering and that gives you the hate. Also it is the score that decays and not the hate which is why it seems to take for ever to decay. Worker stealing is an art form that I haven't fully mastered yet but I can say that even 1 DOW on a CS can make all civs you know at that time hate you forever, sometimes they just don't care.

if you have discovered 1 civ while stealing the worker, does the penalty apply to only that civ or to all the others (which you haven't yet discovered)?

Yes, just that civ. All warmonger score is only applied to civs you have met.

so is it possible that no penalty is taken? is it only if the civ you discovered is a warmonger as well?

Yes. You will find that all civs are hypocrites in this regard.