Optimization Revealed

[greenpeace]

Wait, you did not adress the conclusion that your movement based on benefitting humanity does not serve its purpose:

Chazumi, would the most optimized humans basically be robots since they are pretty much the most efficient conversion of resources to labor?
If so, wouldn't you be creating a race of robot-like beings?
This system is to benefit people the very most, right?
How is everyone being basically turned into a human robot benefit everyone?

 

[Sharwood]

Chazumi, it's becoming blatantly obvious that your argument for why Optimisation will work is: "I can't think of how the glorious revolutionaries will eventually pull it off, so all your arguments against it are wrong." The old proving a negative. Therefore, there really isn't any reason to continue discussing it with you. I'm not bogged down by moral issues like most of the others here, and I still came up with many different reasons why your system will never work. And I'm right.

 

[Perfection]

Well, Chaz is just a visionary, the actual implementation would be done by real superbrains.

 

[kuukkeli]

Think of it like this: in the movie Fight Club, he didn't start blowing crap up after his first fight in the alley, he continued to be crazy and spread that concept to others, eventually after he developed thousands of cells that worked together, and made it a universal concept he struck, blowing up everything that a capitalistic society would need, therefore, of course I won't start with a group of drunks in the alley. Although the ideology of Optimization and the tactics employed are not entirely based off the movie Fight Club.

So best example of how optimization will spread is a movie that can hardly be called realistic? Without any hint of sarcasm, have you suffered any head traumas during your military service?

I feel the government ruling every aspect of EVERYONES LIFE, unified under one flag and one ideology, is much better compared to thousands of political agendas being followed at the same time, along with presidents, prime ministers, dictators, monarchs, kings, tribal leaders, pimps, mob bosses, religious leaders and what not, all leading a small section of humans into different paths of expansion, with different threats to one another, versus eliminating all of them without mercy, without compassion, and without hesitation, much better than continuing on the current course.

In the above there is something I agree with. I also believe that to ensure the survival of our species mankind must unify (partly through peaceful means, partly through violence I presume). For many reasons I just don't see that ending up with a totalitarian communist police state is a way to go, or that it would even be an improvement from the current state of the world.

Your optimized society has so many obvious flaws that there's just no way for it to work:

• It goes against the human nature
• It kills innovation thus slowing or halting the scientific progress
• It removes the concept of profit thus removing the primary drive behind economic system
• It heavily favors individuals lacking important traits like independence, leadership, creativity and courage
• By having too narrow vision of ideal citizen it will impoverish the genetic pool and endanger the species to natural disasters like diseases
• Being built on fear and oppression it ensures that the most able of its population will always dream and plot its demise
• In case of an outside attack it lacks military leadership, motivation and may have considerable amount of its population sympathizing the enemy (due to forementioned reasons)
• It gives some individuals absolute power and entrusts them to make objectively optimized decisions -> corruption, tyranny and eventual collapse of society
• Etc.

Not to mention there appears to be no realistic way to ever reach that state in the first place.

Again, this conflicts with what I know about the assimilation process.

Could you please summarize the facts you've already gathered about this assimilation process?

 

[Chazumi]

Could you please summarize the facts you've already gathered about this assimilation process?

As it being at an unkown place at an unkown time and with even more unkown variables about the economy, political atmosphere and what not, there aren't many. The process will begin once political instability is created and mass unrest exists in order to start a rebellion internally from a the most powerful candidate. At least that's the only way I could think of acheiving it in this day and age. I would theorize it is almost impossible to know too much about the assimilation process at this point because of the aforementioned unknowns.

In the book I read, Optimization began when the species reached over several star systems on a free market monarchy type government, it was simply too massive to maintain, in which case the government collapsed and after several hundred years Optimization came forth, and was widely accepted.

 

[greenpeace]

You still haven't answered the question (yes I'm going to bother you everytime you make a post):

Chazumi, would the most optimized humans basically be robots since they are pretty much the most efficient conversion of resources to labor?
If so, wouldn't you be creating a race of robot-like beings?
This system is to benefit people the very most, right?
How is everyone being basically turned into a human robot benefit everyone?

 

[Chazumi]

You still haven't answered the question (yes I'm going to bother you everytime you make a post):

No they wouldn't be like robots. Some would be replaced by robots or some sort of automated system, but for the most part is it attempted to maintain the biggest human workforce possible. After their shift at their assigned position (which I am still debating the length, 12 hours most likely), they are free to do as they wish provided it doesn't conflict with rules of termination.

No I wouldn't be created a race of robots.

It benefits people the most because it controls every aspect of human life so that the person can focus on his assigned task. They don't need to worry about negative outside influences or anything not related to their specific duty.

Everyone being turned into a robot does not benefit everyone, though nobody would be a robot in Optimization.

 

[greenpeace]

No they wouldn't be like robots. Some would be replaced by robots or some sort of automated system, but for the most part is it attempted to maintain the biggest human workforce possible. After their shift at their assigned position (which I am still debating the length, 12 hours most likely), they are free to do as they wish provided it doesn't conflict with rules of termination.

No I wouldn't be created a race of robots.

It benefits people the most because it controls every aspect of human life so that the person can focus on his assigned task. They don't need to worry about negative outside influences or anything not related to their specific duty.

Everyone being turned into a robot does not benefit everyone, though nobody would be a robot in Optimization.

Well according to your Optimization rules people have to work as many hours that produce the most work (for example 24 hours would be the longest but it would be less effective since they would die, but either way its probably more efficient to have more than 12 hours). You say every aspect of ones life has to be as efficient as possible, which IS a biological robot (where I refer to robot as a system designed to be as efficient at converting resources to work).
I mean, why do we have to be so efficient at converting resources to labor? How does that make the human race better? Sure if it actually worked it would mean a whole hell of a lot of industry, but how is this at all important?

 

[Chazumi]

Well according to your Optimization rules people have to work as many hours that produce the most work (for example 24 hours would be the longest but it would be less effective since they would die, but either way its probably more efficient to have more than 12 hours). You say every aspect of ones life has to be as efficient as possible, which IS a biological robot (where I refer to robot as a system designed to be as efficient at converting resources to work).
I mean, why do we have to be so efficient at converting resources to labor? How does that make the human race better? Sure if it actually worked it would mean a whole hell of a lot of industry, but how is this at all important?

12 hours would be Optimal I think. It would allow for 2 shifts for each duty position thus continuing the work day for 24 hours. Okay, if you want to label it as being a human robot then go ahead, Though I don't think so. I like to think of it as "working smarter not harder".

We have to be efficient at converting resources to labor so that there is no waste and we have Optimal production versus the current system we have. It allows for more to be distributed to everyone and it doesn't only apply to production, it applies to RnD, for example. Eventually with everything Optimized, I believe at least, that science will be rolling along at such an exceptional rate that everything will continue to need to be updated and Optimized.

 

[greenpeace]

12 hours would be Optimal I think. It would allow for 2 shifts for each duty position thus continuing the work day for 24 hours. Okay, if you want to label it as being a human robot then go ahead, Though I don't think so. I like to think of it as "working smarter not harder".

Um, you say smart=efficient, and working extremely is generally more efficient at converting resources to labor.

We have to be efficient at converting resources to labor so that there is no waste and we have Optimal production versus the current system we have. It allows for more to be distributed to everyone and it doesn't only apply to production, it applies to RnD, for example. Eventually with everything Optimized, I believe at least, that science will be rolling along at such an exceptional rate that everything will continue to need to be updated and Optimized.

Who cares if there is more to distribute? Who cares if there is very advanced science? If my entire life is dedicated to production (since that is the most efficient) I am given no right to do many activities that would make me happier, and all that junk is worthless (in fact even if I didn't work and still got the same benfit, statistically people aren't happier with vast material wealth).
It seems as though your focused on creating as much industry as possible for no reason other than just stating that industry=good.

BTW, this applies to Capitalism, Communism, and pretty much any system where incentives are prevelent

 

[Sharwood]

This is sounding more and more like Hellstrom's Hive. You want a race of insect-humans, Chaz?

 

[kuukkeli]

We have to be efficient at converting resources to labor so that there is no waste and we have Optimal production versus the current system we have. It allows for more to be distributed to everyone and it doesn't only apply to production, it applies to RnD, for example.

With practically no free time why would people care if there is more to distribute? No one would have any reason to work harder than the minimum required to survive. You still fail to give any reasons to pursue optimization or any reasons how optimized society would even be viable. This far all your argumentation has been circular - we must optimize so that we may become optimized.

Eventually with everything Optimized, I believe at least, that science will be rolling along at such an exceptional rate that everything will continue to need to be updated and Optimized.

Science would slow down or halt. Reason being the fact that your optimization would discourage initiative and creativity required by scientific advancement. It would put all of its science on a rail and terminate those who wander away from the one true path thus preventing new breakthroughs that often come from those who question the common truths.

 

[Chazumi]

Look not that I don't agree with the position of Optimization vs. The current system of government but, I don't feel like arguing it. I feel like I have obtained all that I can from Optimization thread 2.

So therefore...I must leave with this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDd4Ly9cD4c

Okay so Optimization begins as a persons efforts for personal glory but it eventually transforms into the perfect operational system of government. Sue me. And Hitler was a visionary, provided he couldn't provide the visions. I can.

 

[Sharwood]

Look not that I don't agree with the position of Optimization vs. The current system of government but, I don't feel like arguing it. I feel like I have obtained all that I can from Optimization thread 2.

So therefore...I must leave with this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDd4Ly9cD4c

Okay so Optimization begins as a persons efforts for personal glory but it eventually transforms into the perfect operational system of government. Sue me. And Hitler was a visionary, provided he couldn't provide the visions. I can.

I think we can all safely ignore this thread now. Your buddy Hitler blew his brains out in a bunker when he lost. You've run away from a thread. Less extreme, but same effect.

 

[kuukkeli]

Look not that I don't agree with the position of Optimization vs. The current system of government but, I don't feel like arguing it.

It's hard to argue without arguments.

I feel like I have obtained all that I can from Optimization thread 2.

I agree. You've obtained nothing except some little contempt.

Okay so Optimization begins as a persons efforts for personal glory but it eventually transforms into the perfect operational system of government.

So now you're saying that from purely individualist values rises a new world order that denies all individual value? Don't that mean that optimization can only be born from failure (either the initial attempt fails as there's no personal glory in optimization or optimization fails to give room for such glory)?

And Hitler was a visionary, provided he couldn't provide the visions. I can.

At one point he may have had some reasonable ideas but in the end he was just a madman whose incompetence ultimately led to Germany's defeat. I'm yet to see a glimpse of reason in your visions or an ounce of competence in your argumentation so I doubt you'll do even as good as Adolf.

 

[zxcvbnm]

Look not that I don't agree with the position of Optimization vs. The current system of government but, I don't feel like arguing it. I feel like I have obtained all that I can from Optimization thread 2.

So therefore...I must leave with this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDd4Ly9cD4c

Okay so Optimization begins as a persons efforts for personal glory but it eventually transforms into the perfect operational system of government. Sue me. And Hitler was a visionary, provided he couldn't provide the visions. I can.

I have changed my mind about optimisation completely. On second thoughts, I've always wanted to be a ******** mass-murderer like Hitler. Anything that involves something as awesome as murdering millions, if not billions, for the name of the artificial faceless inhumane society must be the best thing in the world!

 

[Chazumi]

Year Later bump.

Optimization must be clearer to you all. Swine flu, economic turmoil, overpopulation, all would have been solved at this point. Optimization is the way of the future.

To quote: "The future is now." or at least would have been.

 

[Godwynn]

Optimization will give me a pretty blue and red sky?

 

[Perfection]

Nope, that's a suboptimal sky.

 

[Cutlass]

Year Later bump.

Optimization must be clearer to you all. Swine flu, economic turmoil, overpopulation, all would have been solved at this point. Optimization is the way of the future.

To quote: "The future is now." or at least would have been.

And most people still choose to be free.