Organic trade routes

[ColdClimate]

An idea for civ7 I suppose...

I’ve always felt that trade should be more central to Civ, especially in the early game. Civilizations flourished just by being along trade routes, and I just don’t feel like that is stressed that much in the game. At the same time, I find managing lots of trade routes in the later game a bit tedious. Why am I telling my many merchants where to trade their goods anyhow? Shouldn't the invisible hand be directing all of this? A solution: organic trade routes.

Essentially, every city founded starts out with a trader that automatically starts trading with the city in its range that offers the most gold, either internally or externally (in this model trade routes would provide only gold, not food/production/etc). As the city grows or gets more infrastructure (marketplaces, harbors, etc) it increases its number of traders and sends them off to the next best trading opportunity. Trade routes would behave pretty much as they do now, with a couple exceptions:

1. Trading posts: rather than having trading posts that extend your range be created by trading, they have to be built in the host city. And rather than providing gold to the trader, they provide gold to the host. So, if you set up a city with a trading post strategically to create a new trading corridor, you can reap the reward of other civilizations passing through.
   
   
2. Embargos: If your neighbour is annoying you, and you can deal without their caravans, you can embargo them, meaning they no longer have access to each other's trading networks, either for direct trading or passing through via trading posts. Cities with trade routes to or through your neighbour’s city will reroute to other cities in range, if they are available.
   
   
3. Range: Trade routes still create roads, but ‘weak’ roads that will disappear over time if not used. You can, however, use a worker to turn it into a permanent road. This permanent road will not only allow for faster military movement than weak roads, but will also extend the range of trade routes that pass along this way. As technology advances, you can build better roads and eventually railroads. Rivers are a kind of natural permanent roads, connecting cities that are much further than those over a land route.
   

All in all I think this would create a much more dynamic trade aspect to the game that would center more around broad infrastructure decisions rather than managing trader units. There would obviously have to be a lot of other aspects of the game that would have to change to accommodate it, but I think it would be a neat shift.

Anyhow, that's the idea, tear it to shreds!

 

[dagriggstar]

Back in civ IV trade routes were automatic. Apparently they were a big source of late game slowdown, so were taken out of the game for V vanilla.

I believe there was also a trade embargo mechanic too, but it's been so long since I've played it I don't 100% remember.

 

[ColdClimate]

Back in civ IV trade routes were automatic. Apparently they were a big source of late game slowdown, so were taken out of the game for V vanilla.

I believe there was also a trade embargo mechanic too, but it's been so long since I've played it I don't 100% remember.

No wonder I liked the idea! Yes, apparently auto trade routes did exist in CivIV. In V Vanilla they limited them to inside your own borders and in BNV they introduced the manual trade route. The embargo mechanic did exist in IV too, but only for privateers (which is something else I'd like to see return).

Anyhow, hoping that our computing power has advanced enough in the last 10 years to allow for autotrading again.

edit: I see through further reading that CivIV also had the river mechanic for trade routes. Seems like I just need to go back and play it again...

 

[PiR]

Yes it was (is) automatic in Civ 4. However there are 2 differences:

• privateers has hidden nationality and pillages trade route, bringing revenue (gold) each turn
• any boat can be put in embargo mode, which does not pillage but preventes tile use and trade route within its range of effect (multiple boats may be required in some cases to completely embargo a city)

 

[Zegangani]

I Like this Idea. It would bring fresh air to the Trade Route systeme. Reading your posts about the Trade Route Systeme in Civ IV and V, I think the way Trade Routes are handled in Civ VI is just because of balance purposes (a refined version of Civ V's?). Realistically made, trade routes should be automated, so the Player could only set/remove Embargos or indirectly stear that via opening new Routes to other Civs, by meeting new Civs, opening Borders to them...etc. But in Civ VI it requires the Player to envolve in every Trade Route available, which leads to, sometimes unnecessary, Micromanagement. Tbh, I like that it's possible to manage the trade routes so you can choose which yields you want the most from a trade route, but I think an automated Trade Route systeme where you can set Yield priorities in each City (like in the City Management Panel) would be much better.

Another Idea that I would like to see merged with an automated Trade Route systeme is an open Market for resources. So Players can put up resources they want to sell in a Market for sale, and if a Civ has a Trade route to that City then its Player could Buy those resources.

 

[PiR]

I forgot, but in Civ 4 trade routes were only created with civs with which you have open borders or your own cities. Distance did not matter as long as there was a way to get there (if ocean tiles were not passable, then a civ in between without open border could block the trade with another coastal city for example). The most optimal were always chosen for you (I think they only brought gold though, so it's easier to define what's most optimal - bringing food/science/culture/even faith is OK for me, but bringing hammers I find weird).

Tbh, I like that it's possible to manage the trade routes so you can choose which yields you want the most from a trade route, but I think an automated Trade Route systeme where you can set Yield priorities in each City (like in the City Management Panel) would be much better.

Totally agree!!

Another Idea that I would like to see merged with an automated Trade Route systeme is an open Market for resources. So Players can put up resources they want to sell in a Market for sale, and if a Civ has a Trade route to that City then its Player could Buy those resources.

With a minimum price? Then I won't be able to sell 40 horses to an AI at the other side of the world?

 

[ColdClimate]

privateers has hidden nationality and pillages trade route, bringing revenue (gold) each turn

God that was so dope. I wonder if I could go back to playing CivIV or not...

Tbh, I like that it's possible to manage the trade routes so you can choose which yields you want the most from a trade route, but I think an automated Trade Route systeme where you can set Yield priorities in each City (like in the City Management Panel) would be much better.

Another Idea that I would like to see merged with an automated Trade Route systeme is an open Market for resources. So Players can put up resources they want to sell in a Market for sale, and if a Civ has a Trade route to that City then its Player could Buy those resources.

I think the auto-trading system works best if there are no other yields involved, but maybe there would be a way to manage it like you suggest. The open market system sounds to me like regular trading with extra steps (unless I'm not getting something) but I do like the idea of other civs advertising what they want to sell/buy rather than talking to each of them individually.

I forgot, but in Civ 4 trade routes were only created with civs with which you have open borders or your own cities. Distance did not matter as long as there was a way to get there (if ocean tiles were not passable, then a civ in between without open border could block the trade with another coastal city for example). The most optimal were always chosen for you (I think they only brought gold though, so it's easier to define what's most optimal - bringing food/science/culture/even faith is OK for me, but bringing hammers I find weird).

Gah, ok, I'm going to download civIV and see how it holds up. Also see if many of these ideas pop up in Old World...

 

[PiR]

I do like the idea of other civs advertising what they want to sell/buy rather than talking to each of them individually.

Me too. And to sell at the best price without comparing with each AI.

Gah, ok, I'm going to download civIV and see how it holds up. Also see if many of these ideas pop up in Old World...

enjoy!
once you get acclimated to it, make sure to check out RFC mod and submods such as RFC Europe.

 

[Zegangani]

With a minimum price? Then I won't be able to sell 40 horses to an AI at the other side of the world?

Perhaps seperating deal resources from trade resources would solve the Issue. like you can only trade strategic resources via a direct deal (individually) with a Leader, and Luxury/Bonus resources getting traded automatically with the trade route systeme. I mean It's not the job of the Government to provide the Luxuries for its Citizens but to open possibilities for them to acquire those themselves. On the other hand, Bonus resources are a bit trickier. Because they mostly are used to generate Food or Production, which the Government has more to say on. So I think untill they aren't used directly for producing something (Cattle to produce Milk or Stone to build Walls) they shouldn't be part of tradable resources.

I think the auto-trading system works best if there are no other yields involved, but maybe there would be a way to manage it like you suggest. The open market system sounds to me like regular trading with extra steps (unless I'm not getting something) but I do like the idea of other civs advertising what they want to sell/buy rather than talking to each of them individually.

The regular Trading actually is taken place only with direct deals with Leaders. Open markets would take that option fro the player, so that resources are traded automatically based on the Citizens Preferances and their needs (A City that has low Amenity, a Civ that favors Olives resource...etc).
It would be great if Players would have a resource price range they could choose from based on their current economic situation. Like a Civ in a poor Economic situation would have cheaper resources than one that is wealthy (but you could still set the price in-between the range, a high price:low chance that cities (including CSs) will buy that resource, low price: a high chance that Cities will buy that resource). This would make the systeme more complicated, but it would be a nice feature.

 

[Sostratus]

While the Civ4 system was nice, it was perhaps too automatic with too little player agency; whereas civ5 had purely discrete choices for a limited number of routes. I htink civ6 went one step forward and one step back - you could scale up your routes, but then it's micro mgmt hell.

I do think a trade economy should be a viable strategy you can sort of plan around. I'm not sure what the perfect system is, but i think it should be something where every city can participate, but the player can direct the macro level of things, and he can make cities specialized in trade that are far more effective than unspecialized ones.

Perhaps this would look something like all cities having the potential for 1 "route" once they are connected to your trade network via road/rail/harbor. Based on some factors, like population, having certain infrastructure, resources, geography etc, they would have some raw trade value. Where do these routes go? Well, perhaps the player can build a limited number of Trading Posts (use a better term but same idea) which would collect trade from nearby cities; they would then emit that trade toward the Trade Capital. This would initially be your capital city, but you could be granted a project to move it to another place. Since empires wouldn't be able to spam trading posts everywhere, you could actually have a tactical angle of being able to cut off internal trade, and by able to create spots where a great deal of trade value flows through. Somehow, this collector-emitter model would need a way to interface with other empires which you have a trade relation. I'm also not sure if collectors should be able to emit to other collectors on the way to the root node, haven't thought that through.

But in general I would like a more emergent trade layer that features some player agency, but isn't a total click fest and will work by itself.

 

[ColdClimate]

I do think a trade economy should be a viable strategy you can sort of plan around. I'm not sure what the perfect system is, but i think it should be something where every city can participate, but the player can direct the macro level of things, and he can make cities specialized in trade that are far more effective than unspecialized ones.

Like many things, I think the key is location, location, location. If you build a port in a city across the sea from a civ, your own cities will reroute their routes through it and off to those rich lands, rather than trading with the little city states inland. You can add value to those routes by building roads from your cities in the interior to your port, facilitating trade and increasing your own revenue. Your decision is to build the macro infrastructure, the routes themselves are automated.

Perhaps this would look something like all cities having the potential for 1 "route" once they are connected to your trade network via road/rail/harbor. Based on some factors, like population, having certain infrastructure, resources, geography etc, they would have some raw trade value. [...]

I think every city should have at least one trade route, more as they grow. In terms of the trading posts idea, I think you should get paid four your own trading routes, but also for anyone using your city as a node in their routes. Set yourself up a city between two civs that are just out of range of each other and watch the cash roll in from the taxes you collect (well, at least until those civs discovers a route by sea to cut you out and keep the entire bit for themselves). Empires have been founded on this very idea and it would be cool to see it represented.

But in general I would like a more emergent trade layer that features some player agency, but isn't a total click fest and will work by itself.

This is precisely it: I'm happy to build the markets/harbors and enact the policies, but scrolling through a list of 20 potential trading destinations every other turn is just tedious.

 

[PiR]

Like many things, I think the key is location, location, location. If you build a port in a city across the sea from a civ, your own cities will reroute their routes through it and off to those rich lands, rather than trading with the little city states inland.

True, but only if there is something interesting accross the sea that you don't have (e.g. for Europe it was silk from China, spices from India, cotton from America, etc.

I think every city should have at least one trade route, more as they grow. In terms of the trading posts idea, I think you should get paid four your own trading routes, but also for anyone using your city as a node in their routes. Set yourself up a city between two civs that are just out of range of each other and watch the cash roll in from the taxes you collect (well, at least until those civs discovers a route by sea to cut you out and keep the entire bit for themselves). Empires have been founded on this very idea and it would be cool to see it represented.

Totally agree.

This is precisely it: I'm happy to build the markets/harbors and enact the policies, but scrolling through a list of 20 potential trading destinations every other turn is just tedious.

Agree even more.

 

[criZp]

I'd like civ to take a step towards anno, which at least in 1800 handles production and trade in a much more intuitive way. Abstract food and production yields replaced with actual food & drink (bread, fish, sausage, etc) and construction materials & armaments (timber, glass, cannons, etc). Internal trade would be automated: once a city connects by road/harbor to the capital, all its resources and products will become available in the capital and other cities connected to the capital. Once two nations have their capitals connected by road/harbor, they can also engage in a similar trade.

Like in anno, one player can set that they want to sell for example bread, if the storage is above a certain quantity, and another player can say that he wants to buy if his storage is below a certain quantity. For simplicity, each item like bread has a price determined by the game, perhaps a fixed price, so the players won't have to waste time messing around with the numbers and seeing what the other part is willing to accept. If the two players have a trade agreement then items will automatically be bought and sold between turns.

In order to facilitate trade between nations while still providing balance, the game should allow all players to produce everything they need to develop. However, to push civs into specialization, certain civs can be extra efficient at producing certain goods. Just as an example, Norway: fish, and oil/gas produced at increased efficiency, Sweden: timber and dynamite produced at increased efficiency. Norway can also sell fish and oil at a somewhat lower price, while sweden can sell timber and dynamite at a somewhat lower price. Thus they could both benefit by purchasing from each other rather than establishing their own inefficient industries.

 

[ColdClimate]

I'd like civ to take a step towards anno, which at least in 1800 handles production and trade in a much more intuitive way. Abstract food and production yields replaced with actual food & drink (bread, fish, sausage, etc) and construction materials & armaments (timber, glass, cannons, etc).

I'm not sure about adding that level of complexity to resources but on the other hand it does sound more intuitive. I've been wating for years for civ to implement the manufactured goods system that they had in colonisation. The idea of specialising in raw materials or finished products was always intriguing.

In order to facilitate trade between nations while still providing balance, the game should allow all players to produce everything they need to develop.

Here I disagree a bit. Maintain themselves maybe, but I think pushing more interconnectedness makes for more chance for conflict and interesting gameplay. I would love if my neighbour declared war on me to gain access to my oil fields rather than just because they didn't think I built enough city walls or whatever.