Ottomans are too easy!

[creamcheese]

Is it considered an exploit to purposely unhook resources?

I was playing for domination with the ottomans recently, and I came up with an excellent idea. [emperor, pangea, standard] I did the republic slingshot, teched/traded up to invention, and snagged sun-tzu's and leo's. This secured my military infrastructure, I could now instantly upgrade in any city for half price. Then, I beelined towards military tradition, and bought education from the greeks. After building some universities to secure my tech for the rest of the game, I unhooked my iron and saltpeter and started cranking out masses of horsemen. I had about 50 by the time I got military tradition, at which point I re-hooked the resources and upgraded all of those horsemen to sipahi at half price! After that I unhooked and rehooked if I got too low on units... pretty much stomped the AI off the map... with 8 attack and 3 move you don't even need arty to crack open muskets and pikes.

The major advantage here is that since I only started building the massive army ~20 turns before I actually used it, I avoided the massive unit support costs in republic. This allowed me to mass gold and techs to stay competitive and upgrade the cheap horsemen. [This is much less viable without Leo's, those upgrades can use tons of cash].

 

[vmxa]

Some say it is an exploit, some say not. I do not do it as part of the game is to face the chance that a resource will exhaust.

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

Its just you and the game, only you can make the call. I'm sure I use the do-over more than most, and there are some situations where I won't use it. 'Almost all is fair in love & war.' It always comes back to enjoyment for me, would it take away from the enjoyment of the game? probably not for me.

 

[Mike Hussey]

Sorry to interject, but how does this strategy work again? Because I went and thought about it and Horsemen cost 30 shields and Sipahi cost 100 shields so that's a 70 shield differential. Normally this would take 70 X 3 = 210 gold to upgrade a Horseman to a Sipahi but considering that we have Leonardo's Workshop that gets cut down to 105 gold per upgrade (which to me is still quite hefty).

So to achieve that you must have saved up about 105 X 50 = 5250 (if my maths is correct) gold by the time you researched or stole Military Tradition.

 

[Snarkhunter]

Sorry to interject, but how does this strategy work again? Because I went and thought about it and Horsemen cost 30 shields and Sipahi cost 100 shields so that's a 70 shield differential. Normally this would take 70 X 3 = 210 gold to upgrade a Horseman to a Sipahi but considering that we have Leonardo's Workshop that gets cut down to 105 gold per upgrade (which to me is still quite hefty).

So to achieve that you must have saved up about 105 X 50 = 5250 (if my maths is correct) gold by the time you researched or stole Military Tradition.

Essentially, you are just trading gold for shields. You have many more ways to accumulate gold than shields, and you can obtain it from the AI as well. You are also gaining tempo as well; it's faster to build a low shield unit than high. Near as I can tell, these are the main benefits of this technique.

Too lazy to do it, myself

kk

 

[Ataxerxes]

Is it considered an exploit to purposely unhook resources?

I was playing for domination with the ottomans recently, and I came up with an excellent idea. [emperor, pangea, standard] I did the republic slingshot, teched/traded up to invention, and snagged sun-tzu's and leo's. This secured my military infrastructure, I could now instantly upgrade in any city for half price. Then, I beelined towards military tradition, and bought education from the greeks. After building some universities to secure my tech for the rest of the game, I unhooked my iron and saltpeter and started cranking out masses of horsemen. I had about 50 by the time I got military tradition, at which point I re-hooked the resources and upgraded all of those horsemen to sipahi at half price! After that I unhooked and rehooked if I got too low on units... pretty much stomped the AI off the map... with 8 attack and 3 move you don't even need arty to crack open muskets and pikes.

The major advantage here is that since I only started building the massive army ~20 turns before I actually used it, I avoided the massive unit support costs in republic. This allowed me to mass gold and techs to stay competitive and upgrade the cheap horsemen. [This is much less viable without Leo's, those upgrades can use tons of cash].

It's a judgement call whether it's an exploit or not. For what it's worth, I don't think it's even mentioned in the hall of fame rules. Would it be much more of an exploit that a prebuild? It isn't just the Ottomans, however. It can be used for normal cavalry, Knights, you name it. It just works even better with unique units. I don't use it, but I'm like Snarkhunter, it's too much work.

Your second paragraph is the best description of the disconnect/reconnect strategy I've seen.

 

[Spoonwood]

For what it's worth, I don't think it's even mentioned in the hall of fame rules.

I've openly admitted using disconnect-reconnect in my HoF threads, including my Huge Deity histographic and my Standard Sid conquest game. You can find other HoF players talking of it a few years back also.

Creamcheese,

If you really think the Ottomans too easy, then I challenge you to use them on Sid and submit the game to the HoF.

 

[Snarkhunter]

I've openly admitted using disconnect-reconnect in my HoF threads, including my Huge Deity histographic and my Standard Sid conquest game. You can find other HoF players talking of it a few years back also.

How necessary a tactic is this at higher levels, Spoonwood? I mean, is it sort of de rigueur for a military style game, or just another trick in the bag of? I ask because I am not likely to be there any time soon & am curious. . . .

kk

 

[Spoonwood]

How necessary a tactic is this at higher levels, Spoonwood? I mean, is it sort of de rigueur for a military style game, or just another trick in the bag of?

I wouldn't claim such necessary. But, if you want to finish as fast as you can (in a military game)/get as high a score as you can at higher levels, I'd claim such as highly desired, if not needed. In some fast higher level games military games in the HoF the disconnect-reconnect didn't get used, because there didn't exist enough time for it to come into play (Mounted Warrior/Gallic Sword rush... maybe a few upgraded warriors there, but not many).

I'd definitely recommend doing such BEFORE military tradition in a conquest/domination game. After military tradition, buy armies instead.

 

[mikenine1962]

Cream cheese, this week I ‘domination’ won my first, 6 country small world SID level game with the Ottomans 280 AD, opponents Eng, Nether, Spain, Port, Arabia ( the weakest 5 countries I could find). It took me 10 months to win at SID level from Deity. At emperor level I decided to win no more than 3 games, a level because, winning strategies that worked at one level, didn't work at the next level. From memory at emperor level, it was possible to acquire 2 settlers (Allowing you to grow quicker and dominate earlier) from contact with minor tribes, while your on your first city. But at higher levels no matter how many times I reloaded, the AI wouldn't give me even a single settler.

When I got to SID level, I got my first breakthrough like you using the Ottomans, I was keen on the French (because of the statue of Zeus, ) and the Greeks before that. What made me competitive at SID level and noticeably more productive was playing around with the 'Contact Governor'. It looks like if you tick to many options i.e. emphasise food / commerce / production , you end up neutralising any emphasis, the result being there is no emphasis at all. So for that winning game I ticked - Manage citizens moods and Emphasise Food, everything else was un ticked.

It was a single continent game, apart from a small land mass that the English had 4 cities on, so no need for even a galley, which does conserve resources. Oh and I picked the warm climate option as land is more productive. I also chose accelerated production, and AI - normal aggression.

With a single continent game you also conserve resources as there is a better chance you will early on have 5 luxuries, which means you don't need to rely on building things like temples (or even great wonders apart from possibly the statue of Zeus,) to keep your citizens happy and productive, In fact later on in the game when I had 8 luxuries, I noticed even though I'd built no more than a couple temples (No coliseums, or cathedrals ) with over 30 cities, all citizens where happy and there most productive. The only careful judgement I had to make early in the game was when to invest in barracks. Too early and I lost time building units, etc. Too late and units lose there effectiveness. In this game I also, had early access to ivory and won the statue of Zeus, I successfully attacked and acquired the city with the great library, the knights templar 10 to 15 turns after the I think Spanish won it, and even got my hands on smiths trading company a few turns after it was built by the Dutch ( I'm usually technically behind, and was in this game). So I use reloading to spy on cities, and see who's making what and by when, even to get a peek at a world map before I decide to actually trade/ pay for it. Before I start a game I like to go walk about with my first settler and worker to see where the luxuries, rivers are, and even how close other countries are even whether your on a single continent as I leave the land mass type in player set up at random.

So in single continent games ( and I'm not sure I would have won a two continent game at SID level), when your trying to take over cities in the game you don't have to worry about building temples, ( because you hopefully have access to 5 luxuries early in the game, concerning yourself only with libraries and uni's, allowing you to build up your units. I also noticed I waited till quite late in the game not that many years off being in AD before switching from Despotism to Monarchy.

I have had stacks of Doom ( Opposing units ) of over 100, attacking me, so I have no qualms about reloading .

 

[mikenine1962]

Oh and I was one technical advance off completing the ( obligatory ) middle ages advances when I won in 280 AD

 

[Aabraxan]

Welcome to CFC, minenine1962!

I don't play at Sid yet, but if I may offer one observation, consider setting the governor to "Emphasize Production." If I understand the order of things correctly, the game counts commerce, then food, then shields. That means that the only emphasis setting that gets you any benefit is production. When a new citizen is born, commerce and food have already been counted, but shields have not, so that new citizen is placed on a high-shield tile and you get those shields immediately, on the same turn as growth.

 

[mikenine1962]

Abraxan, you remind me of my 71 year old Jewish neighbour who I saw playing this game and got me hooked. He goes into the same detail ( but last I spoke to him about the importance of the governor he said it appeared to have no effect and typically ticked all three - food production and commerce ). My point is that ticking single emphasis probably works better, than ticking all 3 options. You make an interesting point about new citizen, production and high tile shields, but even there, production is dependant on city / citizen size which is in turn dependant on food. So intuitively I would encourage you to emphasise food. Commerce and Production appear dependant on City size which appears dependant on food. Just the one small world 6 country, Sid level win to date to base this on though. The detail you have gone into is impressive though.

 

[Aabraxan]

I've never been compared to a 71 year old Jewish neighbor before! I hope that's a good thing.

Seriously, though, while the intuitive thing may be to emphasize thing may be to emphasize food, it doesn't doo any good. Here's why: The emphasis setting deals with "what does the governor do with newly-born citizens?" Assume you have a town just about to grow. The game counts commerce, then food, then adjusts for growth, then shields (IIUC). So when the town grows, if the governor is set to emphasize food, the governor puts the new citizen on a high-food tile. The food for that turn has already been counted. OTOH, if it's set to emphasize production, the gov sets the new citizen on a high-shield tile and the shields have not yet been counted for the turn. I get the extra shields, and I can set the new citizen on a high-food tile if I want.

I hope I've explained this clearly. Fellow CFC'ers, if I've given him any incorrect information, as always, someone please step in and correct me.

 

[mikenine1962]

Aabraxan, this is a chicken and egg one I think, but my point is the acquisition of new citizens and growth of the city is dependant on ( food ) not commerce or production. its dependant on food i.e. growth in so many turns, so unless you get that growth via food , there is no new citizen for the governor to exploit anyway. I see your point but your talking about what happens after a new citizen is acquired I'm talking about the food created, prior to a new citizen. But I readily admit to really NOT fully understanding how the governor manages workers.

From another perspective. Looking at growth early in the game. Prior to my win I did tick the production in one game , and commerce in another game. Both seemed to give quicker growth of cities, than me previously ticking food production and commerce at the same time. However the new found growth did not translate into a winning position. By sheer chance I stumbled onto picking the food option as I read some where ( where oh where did I read this ?) that prior to a city growth turn, you could benefit from food emphasis and commerce emphasis, if you switch from food commerce to food prior on the turn prior to growth. It was only when I picked the food option did this translate into winning a Sid game.

I've found I cannot post this win on the HOF as I've used accelerated production and no diplomatic victory, I might start another game that would be accepted but I been blagging to the admin staff that there are so few Sid level domination victory small world games posted ( 2 people in fact / 3 games ) why a 3rd (mine wouldn't shoot the goose ).

I bow to your grasp of the finer technicalities of the game. Aabraxan.

ps you don't look a day over 21. You'd like Eddie he's a lot smarter than me.

 

[CKS]

Remember that you can't reload in games for the HOF.

 

[mikenine1962]

thanks CKS, then I think they should open up a HOF section for deluded players that will reload 100 times to win a battle of a single unit. And say you lose a unit, break down in tears and quit without saving your loss is so immense. then after composing yourself, in less than a minute you reload to fight another day. I suppose they could say no body cries that quick. But I take your point, but I would be probably at chieftain level, never mind the 10 months reloading at SID level to win a game.

 

[Spoonwood]

thanks CKS, then I think they should open up a HOF section for deluded players that will reload 100 times to win a battle of a single unit.

We've started to wander off-topic, but there doesn't exist a delusion here (as long as 100 means "sufficiently large" and not exactly 100). You just turn "preserve random seed" off and reload as much as you need. Also, with respect to HoF games, the 20k game becomes completely different. You just turn random-seed off, and reload until you get an SGL on every tech you research.

Aabraxan, this is a chicken and egg one I think, but my point is the acquisition of new citizens and growth of the city is dependant on ( food ) not commerce or production. its dependant on food i.e. growth in so many turns, so unless you get that growth via food , there is no new citizen for the governor to exploit anyway. I see your point but your talking about what happens after a new citizen is acquired I'm talking about the food created, prior to a new citizen. But I readily admit to really NOT fully understanding how the governor manages workers.

We don't have any "chicken and egg" thing here. Yes, the growth of a city depends on food. But, the governor setting does NOT determine how much food your city gets on a turn. The citizens working the tiles determines how much food your city gets on a turn. One can put the governor on "emphasize food" and then switch all your citizens to the mountains, and consequently you'll lose food or starve out your citizen(s) every turn. The food created prior to a new citizen, only happens due to the placement of citizens.

If one sets the governor to just "emphasize production" then one can click in on the city before the turn finishes and maximize food/commerce/production as one pleases. On top of this, when the city grows, it'll get extra shields since the new citizen which you cannot control yet will give you those shields. This happens, because of the order in which food, commerce, and production get calculated. If we set it to "emphasize food", we won't get extra food when the city grows. If we set it to "emphasize commerce", we also won't get extra commerce when the city grows.

So intuitively I would encourage you to emphasise food.

That works for the human player and people have long given such advice, and pretty much all experienced players agree. However, the human players is NOT the governor. The term "the governor" refers to the settings in the game, which only determines which tiles get used when the city grows. The tiles which get used before it grows depends on citizen placement, which lies at the discretion of the human player.

 

[Spoonwood]

From another perspective. Looking at growth early in the game. Prior to my win I did tick the production in one game , and commerce in another game. Both seemed to give quicker growth of cities, than me previously ticking food production and commerce at the same time. However the new found growth did not translate into a winning position. By sheer chance I stumbled onto picking the food option as I read some where ( where oh where did I read this ?) that prior to a city growth turn, you could benefit from food emphasis and commerce emphasis, if you switch from food commerce to food prior on the turn prior to growth. It was only when I picked the food option did this translate into winning a Sid game.

I've found I cannot post this win on the HOF as I've used accelerated production and no diplomatic victory, I might start another game that would be accepted but I been blagging to the admin staff that there are so few Sid level domination victory small world games posted ( 2 people in fact / 3 games ) why a 3rd (mine wouldn't shoot the goose ).

Becuase the HoF has a rulebook for its games. The rulebook comes as the basis of comparison. Without such a rulebook, we don't have a "measuring stick" by which to compare such games. What you propose comes as an alteration to the HoF rulebook. All games previously submitted then have to get evaluated on the basis of the rulebook. On top of this, this doesn't work out fair to people who played games in the past, because they no doubt could and would have played their games differently had they had the ability to play under a different rulebook. For example, if Moonsinger didn't have map limitations and could turn off the domination limit, no doubt she would have played her top-scoring game differently in that she would have owned more territory on a much larger map for a score over 100k. I made a joke post on this once.

People have beaten Sid without the emphasize food option, without reloading, and playing under the HoF rulebook before.

If you don't want to play under such a rulebook, don't. But, if you want your games to get compared to others in some way, we need to have some basis of comparison for those games... in other words... a rulebook.

 

[creamcheese]

I've openly admitted using disconnect-reconnect in my HoF threads, including my Huge Deity histographic and my Standard Sid conquest game. You can find other HoF players talking of it a few years back also.

Creamcheese,

If you really think the Ottomans too easy, then I challenge you to use them on Sid and submit the game to the HoF.

I'm only a Monarch/Emperor level player. My comment probably should have been qualified with the fact that, at emperor, they are too easy. I'm working on becoming confident of demi-god, I'll definitely submit a sid win if i ever get one!

Also, regarding the comment about it costing 5k gold, that's really not a lot, if you've been actively trading techs and turn off your science once you get military tradition. I find it's a lot easier to get tons of gold than to rack up production, and gold is more versatile.