Outposts

[Chadwiick]

My suggestion/idea is the ability to create outposts.

Concept: Have a small hex grid surrounding the outpost to claim territory and resources with range is limited.

Why: Because I found the parameters of a cities outskirts (max) so I use it as effectively as possible. There are always these little spots of resources or unclaimed land that is not worth building an entire city on.

Example: I have a city that has it's citizen reach maxed, there is some gold outside the parameters. I want to use that gold to increase my cities currency production but I can't, yet It's not worth building an entire city when I have a city nearby just not close enough to reach the gold either so I want to build an outpost to gather that resource.
Example2: I have two cities and it's going to take quite a while to get them connected, I want to build and outpost to connect the borders quickly.

What the outpost does- Have the ability to extract resources and route them to a city, not only luxury/strategic but any resource like food or production. Ability to claim land fast. Has the standard city hex grid outline, requires population and will not increase population on its own. Ability to build some buildings like a harbor so there is a trade route established.

How to balance? Make it so a road is required to extract the extra resources. You have to "sacrifice" (not really sacrifice) population to use that outpost. Outpost would have a maintenance fee. So you'll feel like is it really worth all the maintenance costs (including food unless harvesting food to supply the population) to get the surrounding resources?

What do you guys and gals think?

 

[Kurtbob]

I like your idea. I see an outpost as a tile improvement that acts as a culture bomb that can be placed anywhere on the map. Indeed, there are many problems with building cities on tiles in heavy tundra/ice/desert/mountain/single island tile regions that are just a drain on happiness and raise your policy costs. The Ai is notorious for building these types of cities and I would like to see them not waste their production/time/happiness. Outposts are a good option.

I think this is an excellent way to expand borders using production instead of culture or cash. Were you thinking of having a worker build the outpost or a whole new unit that is expended like a settler? I prefer a new unit, maybe a colonist?, founding an outpost. They would have to be cheaper than a settler, but this may lead to RAPID land claim once production is high in your cities. Maybe outposts can only become available during the renaissance era.

I don't think you need to connect your outpost via roads and harbors (it would be both a pain and expensive to build roads to your outposts and you can't build harbors in non-cities) to balance its use. They should just claim tiles. I also think the outpost itself cannot act as a mine, plantation, etc to aquire resources. It just claims the tiles so they can be improved by your workers at a later time. The balance is that outposts are tile improvements and can therfore be pillaged and destroyed by the enemy. Knowing that you can lose seven claimed tiles from a pillaging unit will require you to think about outpost placement and protection. Outposts would also have to anger AIs much like placing a city near them, though to a lesser extent.

What do you think?

 

[smallfish]

They should stick this Outpost idea into forts really - have it become one each time they get built outside borders.

 

[Chadwiick]

+1 for making combining the fort and outpost idea. Sounds like a good combination.

Best way to get rid of spam is to force a player to make a decision, do I want to spend the gold of maintenance to keep the outpost just for more territory or do I really want that land?

Another idea is to have a specialized unit that goes around and claim territory. This unit would of course also require gold maintenance and would take some time to claim land so you don't see people just spam spam spam. Time+in order to connect you have to have claimed territory to connect the wanted unclaimed territory would equal less ability to spam. You could also add a penalty saying if the territory is only connected to one piece then it would take X% longer and/or make it so you cannot claim territory X amount of hexs' outside of the closest cities maximum resource gathering range.

Also, not too big of a fan of the outpost being able to be used as a tile improvement structure. It could just be built by a worker who needs to connect the outpost to the city so the city can supply X amount of citizens (of your choosing) to the outpost. The roads would be required, just like a regular city where it needs a road or harbor built so it can transfer currency to the capitol and into your government funds.

Being able to have outposts would greatly benefit a city with little production, little food, etc. When you build a city in a desert you won't have to worry about never having a decent amount of food or production. It would just cost you more to get that bonus of food, production, resources, etc. because it you need to build and maintain an outpost.

The outpost should take an entire tile if the idea of fort+outpost idea comes alive because you would need a place to store citizens and some type of defenses. It's mainly a city that cannot grow but help a city grow as well as a fort but not as powerful as a city.

 

[Kurtbob]

They should stick this Outpost idea into forts really - have it become one each time they get built outside borders.

Agreed. Would make forts far more useful and keep things nice and simple since you would not have to mod in a new improvement/special tile.

Chadwiick: Sorry I bastardized your idea with my own. I think the idea of creating an outpost and using citizens from other cities to cultivate tile yields for the capital is a cool idea, but I have some questions.

Would any citizen from your empire be able to work the outpost's tiles or just your capital's citizens?

How will a harbor be built in a non-city? Will an outpost have a city-screen or will an outpost-screen need to be created? I can imagine a small island outpost rich with fish could yield a great deal of food for the capital. Possibly an outpost is built with the ability to connect to the capital over water tiles when certain techs are researched (optics for coast, astronomy for ocean). What do you think?

 

[Chadwiick]

Chadwiick: Sorry I bastardized your idea with my own. I think the idea of creating an outpost and using citizens from other cities to cultivate tile yields for the capital is a cool idea, but I have some questions.

No need to apologize, you brought up some ideas, nothing wrong with that.

Would any citizen from your empire be able to work the outpost's tiles or just your capital's citizens?

The idea was that a city would pretty much just claim an outpost under them so it was up to that city to supply the population and establish a trade route.

How will a harbor be built in a non-city?

What I imagined was that it would be like a city, click on it a screen pops up and click build, of course since it's an outpost it cannot create many structures like a university, only things that have to do with what an outpost would be created for. For example it can build a harbor if on a coast to connect to the capitol or other city so it can be connected to the capitol. Just a thought as well, perhaps an outpost can build a stone works so it can work on the stone?

Will an outpost have a city-screen or will an outpost-screen need to be created?

I imagine a city-like screen but with an outpost theme or something of the likes. It has to have some attributes of a city like citizen management and production.

I can imagine a small island outpost rich with fish could yield a great deal of food for the capital. Possibly an outpost is built with the ability to connect to the capital over water tiles when certain techs are researched (optics for coast, astronomy for ocean). What do you think?

I agree with this. Just like a city on an island cannot establish a trade route to the capitol unless it has a harbor, which you will have to wait for the technology to be researched. As well as if you don't have the wheel researched and you've all ready got a city or two... or how ever many cities the crazy people can plop out before the wheel, you cannot establish a trade route.

 

[Carnifaux]

I like this idea a lot, hopefully we can see something like this implemented in either a mod or a future content patch/expansion.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Definitely including merging this to make forts+citadels better...

Allow Forts+Citadels to harvest resources if Outside your border (although Not food/gold/hammers, just the strategic resources)... but they need to be connected by a road to a city (assumed to have a Harbor)

Then charge money for forts (like roads/railroads)... if they are outside your border.
And allow them to have air units (3 for forts like carriers, unlimited for Citadels.)

They should also give 1 vision of the area

 

[Kurtbob]

Definitely including merging this to make forts+citadels better...

Allow Forts+Citadels to harvest resources if Outside your border (although Not food/gold/hammers, just the strategic resources)... but they need to be connected by a road to a city (assumed to have a Harbor)

Then charge money for forts (like roads/railroads)... if they are outside your border.
And allow them to have air units (3 for forts like carriers, unlimited for Citadels.)

They should also give 1 vision of the area

Forts/Citadels acting as air strips is a great idea. You don't have to mod in a new tile improvement that acts as an airstrip and you get more use out of your forts.

I'm still not keen on the idea of requiring roads/harbors to claim resources. It mirrors the gameplay in Civ3 too much. I think forts should just claim tiles outside of your empire and those claimed tiles need to be improved upon like any other. Easy peezy lemon squeezy.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Forts/Citadels acting as air strips is a great idea. You don't have to mod in a new tile improvement that acts as an airstrip and you get more use out of your forts.

I'm still not keen on the idea of requiring roads/harbors to claim resources. It mirrors the gameplay in Civ3 too much. I think forts should just claim tiles outside of your empire and those claimed tiles need to be improved upon like any other. Easy peezy lemon squeezy.

Well I think that might make them too powerful (claiming territory without a city, and getting resources.) But since they don't produce/defend, it might be viable... their "culture" would have to be a temporary form that actual city culture would replace.

 

[Kurtbob]

Well I think that might make them too powerful (claiming territory without a city, and getting resources.) But since they don't produce/defend, it might be viable... their "culture" would have to be a temporary form that actual city culture would replace.

Agreed. If your city radius expands into the fort's tiles, the city should be able to use them. I would think it could be done by simply entering the city screen and selecting the tiles you wish the city to work much like what a player does now when selecting which shared tiles two neighboring cities will use.

I also think destroying forts (pillaging) should result in the loss of the claimed tiles (land becomes unclaimed once more, unless of course there is a city sharing the tiles). The fort represents 'military' claims as opposed to 'population' claims and must be defended with units or it is easily lost. Just because a civ can claim land without building cities shouldn't empower a player to claim everything piece meal, defense should be key.

 

[CYZ]

I like this idea but have a question.

The outpost or fort makes all surrounding tiles become your culturally, what if some of these tiles are further than 3 tiles away from your city. Surely you don't suggest your city could work those tiles?

I still really like the idea, it gives forts another use, besides defensive which is rarely usefull (chokepoints only). I'd suggest the following: Forts gives normal defensive bonus, when connected to traderoute all adjacent tiles become yours (unless they belong to someone else).

Still, there are complications. What if you use a fort to bring tiles close to a city under your control. Your city keeps expanding culturally overtime. Do the tiles converted by the fort still need to be expanded to the normal way?

If not, is it possible that you have a very large cultural radius, someone pillages your fort and all of a sudden there is a gaping hole in your cultural area?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I like this idea but have a question.

The outpost or fort makes all surrounding tiles become your culturally, what if some of these tiles are further than 3 tiles away from your city. Surely you don't suggest your city could work those tiles?

I still really like the idea, it gives forts another use, besides defensive which is rarely usefull (chokepoints only). I'd suggest the following: Forts gives normal defensive bonus, when connected to traderoute all adjacent tiles become yours (unless they belong to someone else).

Still, there are complications. What if you use a fort to bring tiles close to a city under your control. Your city keeps expanding culturally overtime. Do the tiles converted by the fort still need to be expanded to the normal way?

If not, is it possible that you have a very large cultural radius, someone pillages your fort and all of a sudden there is a gaping hole in your cultural area?

I think "become yours" is not what the tiles should do... instead you get 'strategic/luxury access', 'sight', and 'ability to build improvements' on any Unclaimed tiles adjacent to to the Fort/Citadel.
Culture should be needed to claim tiles (friendly lands bonuses, ability to work if in city radius, greater sight range, etc.)

 

[Chadwiick]

The idea was that you could build a fort/outpost. It would claim the territory surrounding it (adding cultural borders) and it can harvest resources surrounding it. The resources won't go back to the city that claims responsibility of the outpost/fort until a trade route is established. The outpost itself cannot expand its borders, it just simply takes over the grids surrounding it and that's it.

No the city does not need to "research" the tiles that the outpost has all ready claimed. Yes, this can be a problem. That's why you can make many things to prevent spam.
For example, require a worker to make an outpost which requires quite a hefty amount of time. Also You could make a specific unit that builds an outpost, like someone mentioned colonists.
As well as making it so a city can only claim 2 outposts maximum.

Or you could say yes it requires a city to research the borders.
The way I see this could be done is that you build an outpost, instead of a solid border line, it becomes "dotted" border line. Meaning that you have claimed it but it's not permanent to a city until a city claims all borders.

 

[CYZ]

I agree with the idea for a dotted culture line. So what can you do inside this area:

* build improvements
* recieve resources if improved and if fort is connected to traderoute
* you can see inside these tiles, but not outside

What you can't do

* Recieve unitbonusses

Points for discussion

* unit healing?
* can your cities work these tiles?
* can other players or CS gain these tiles via culture or buying, if so, is it normal price or increased price?
* Are these tiles cheaper to buy or grow culturally to?

Must say, I'm really in love with this idea. Last question, can you build a fort/outpost in dotted terrtory and does it then have the same effect?

 

[Chadwiick]

Points for discussion

* unit healing?

I'm thinking minimal, not like a city, but not like outside of your territory. If there is a one in between.

* can your cities work these tiles?

Not directly, cities donate population to an outpost so the people can work on it, with a trade route established the outposts will generate all gather resources, whether it would be production, food, gold, etc. to the city that has it under it's wing.

* can other players or CS gain these tiles via culture or buying, if so, is it normal price or increased price?

Ah, if you read my original sentences ignore them, just found out what CS means. Anyways. If you are talking about the claimed, but not permanent-like tiles then no they shouldn't, err maybe they should. Hmm, good question. I say however the current system of when boundries of two nations collide, how things are determined should swap to the Outposts as well.

* Are these tiles cheaper to buy or grow culturally to?

Refer to the answer above?

Must say, I'm really in love with this idea. Last question, can you build a fort/outpost in dotted terrtory and does it then have the same effect?

Well, it should be like a city. I think how it is, since I don't build cities close to each other- you cannot build an outpost directly next to another outpost. Then again, if their range is limited to one tile then there is no point in saying they can. Only being able to say that they can but never interfere with each other.

 

[CYZ]

I'm not so much in favor of the idea of sending population to an outpost/fort. Due to a few reasons

What if a fort has the same distance to two cities, who does it belong to?
If you have a large empire with many cities and many forts micromanagement becomes tedious.
What is the difference with just being able to work the tile? In both cases you trade a population for the tile yield.

All in all, too complicated. It could work but I think the micromanagement would be too much, even for civ.

Here's how I would suggest it

Fort, when connected to trade network brings all adjacent tiles under your control (dotted line) unless tiles already are under your or someone elses control.

What you gain inside dotted territory

*sight within territory, not outside
* Able to build improvements
* Gain resources if improved
* healing ability as if inside normal border (+1)
* culture cost of these tiles is halved for you, but doubled for opponents (thus easier for you to grow to, harder for them)

What you can't do

* gain any unitbonusses
* guarentee someone else doesn't take over the tiles
* work these tiles by cities

So I would forget the population idea entirely. This way it could actually work and be more fun. It would make empires much more dynamic if it's not just cities and traderoutes, but also these outpostforts in between. In fact, might make the game harder for the warmongerer since there will be more forts and AIs will want to defend them for the resources.

Last thing to resolve. Can forts link up to the trade network over water (if a city has a harbour ofcourse). Could make water maps more dynamic for sure, on the other hand it is a bit too easy and cheap if you don't have to build roads.

One other thing to resolve actually. This situation will almost never occur but still. What if a fort is connected to your traderoute, but also to those of other civs. Someone pillages the road leading to your fort. Does the fort go to other civs?

 

[JimboThrasher]

I really like this idea, it is very interesting and would be super cool.

First off, i don't think that culture generation should be given. I think it should just give you each surrounding the fort, and if the fort is sacked then you loose all worked tiles within.

Also, I don't think that air strips should be included from the get go. i know, alot of people want them, but I think a new improvement should be created that you have to build specifically to let airplanes base there. A military base/fort does not equal an airbase in my opinion. This would make a fort without an air strip vulnurable to attack and make things interesting.

I agree that the fort needs to be connected to a city in order to get the resources, and that the fort should cost a little more than what it costs now.

I don't think i brought anything new to the discussion, although, I think that it would be cool that if you connect a fort/outpost to civ that you are friends with or an ally city state, that you get the resources. This would drastically change thigns because you could have a little mining outpost in some continent a friendly civ is in and be able to get the benefit of the resources without damaging dimplomatic relations with the civilization who has claimed that area.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

It might be easier if you had to put the fort ON the resource.... so

Fort
1. costs Improvement maintenance
2. can hold 3 air units
3. claims the strategic/luxury resource it is on IF connected by roads to a city [coastal forts count as having a Harbor?]
4. gives 1 range vision
5. can be constructed outside cultural borders

How does that sound
(then a citadel would be the same except unlimited air units/no maintenance/no road connection required)

 

[Lexicus]

Whichever tile the Fort is built on should have your culture, and Forts should be changed to harvest strategic resources. I think having the Fort claim all tiles in a 1-tile radius would be overpowered.

Having to build a road to every fort you have would get expensive quick, especially if the fort itself costs money, too.