Overcouncil, Vassals, and Defensive Pacts

[Raguel]

I just played a game using 0.31d. I was the leader of the overcouncil and got everyone to agree to a defensive pact. The problem was that one of the members (her name escapes me; Calabim leader, but with Order religion) was a vassal to Faeryl Viconia. Viconia declares war on me. Everyone declares war on Viconia, with the exception of her vassal. As I right this, I think I read somewhere that a vassal can't declare war on the master?


At any rate, I was hoping Viconia would do what she always does, and that would break the master-vassal relationship, but it didn't. No worries tho; Capria broke it for me.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

If it is a female Calabim leader, and you aren't using advanced start, then it is Alexis (although some people think that Flauros looks like a woman too)

Vassals are always at war and at peace with the same leaders as their masters are. I'm not sure they can declare war on their masters in the traditional way, and I'm almost positive you cannot request that they do it in diplomacy, but they can go to war.

Normally a vassal can demand its independence, and if the master refuses it must declare war. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure you could declare war on them right after they free you.

Also, you can exploit one of several direct damage spells to declare on anyone, anytime (except permanent allies), but the AI doesn't realize it. This would let (a human player) declare war on a vassal or master at any point, and also lets you ignore the "10 turn forced peace" agreement from accepting demands/gifts.




I really think that the Overcouncil should have a resolution to force a master to free a vassal. After all, "Social equality and impartiality are the model between a government and its citizens as well as between empires. As such the Empyrean gives equal voice to small empires as it does those that dominate Erebus." (True, the council wouldn't be all Empyrean civs, but it does dominate it.) It seems like it would disapprove of vassalage agreements, at least when the vassal want to be free. I'm thinking only the Vassal or Master should be able to defy this resolution, and that there should be no penalty for the Vassal doing so.

Resolutions to force a player to liberate a city to the civ with the highest culture there would also be nice.

 

[Sofista]

^But was Faeryl in the Overcouncil in the game the OP mentioned? Don't think so.

But an "abandon your voluntary subjugation" resolution could be worth adding... although if an OC state vassalizes to a non-OC state, then maybe they have their reasons.

 

[Vorpal+5]

I'm a bit hazy on what are the conditions (I know they are listed in a tooltip) to have a vassal breaks his oath of allegiance. Should the 3 conditions be satisfied, or only one?

 

[Raguel]

If it is a female Calabim leader, and you aren't using advanced start, then it is Alexis (although some people think that Flauros looks like a woman too)

Vassals are always at war and at peace with the same leaders as their masters are. I'm not sure they can declare war on their masters in the traditional way, and I'm almost positive you cannot request that they do it in diplomacy, but they can go to war.

I really think that the Overcouncil should have a resolution to force a master to free a vassal. After all, "Social equality and impartiality are the model between a government and its citizens as well as between empires. As such the Empyrean gives equal voice to small empires as it does those that dominate Erebus." (True, the council wouldn't be all Empyrean civs, but it does dominate it.) It seems like it would disapprove of vassalage agreements, at least when the vassal want to be free. I'm thinking only the Vassal or Master should be able to defy this resolution, and that there should be no penalty for the Vassal doing so.

Resolutions to force a player to liberate a city to the civ with the highest culture there would also be nice.

Yes, it was Alexis. She doesn't stand out to me because if I have a problem with the Calabim, it's usually Flauros giving me headaches.


A little more background on my game: originally Alexis' religion was FoL, so she was still evil. While at war with her she vassalized (is that a word? ) to Faeryl. I ended up taking most of Alexis cities. she then converted to Order and a few turns later ended up in the OC. Now I no longer had options to "declare war on X", but I did have defensive pact.


I wish there were more options involved with the OC and the vassal mechanic. One time I had Cardith (sp) as a vassal, and in a few turns he switched to Veil. Basium was not amused.

 

[jimi12]

I definetly think that the councils should have more options, especially OC. right now, if you are a neutral civ, there is almost no incentive to join the OC, other than the dilpo mods, instead of the UC. the councils never affect a game that much and i think things like breaking vassalages and handing over cities are good ideas. some other options may include paying to inquisition all CoE in their cities.

 

[Dora190]

on a more general note has anyone else noticed that everyone seems to jump to overcouncil? Generally in most games I play you only get one or two on the Undercouncil and everyone else goes Overcouncil. You even get evil players joining a religion that sends them neutral then they go overcouncil...