Nikis-Knight
Deity
Heh, that reminds me of the AI learning to exploit great commanders. There was a time when they could be easily duplicated, a bug which the ai used to cause spin locks getting unlimited numbers of recruited units.
Overpowered This, Overpowered That...
- Thread starter xilr
- Start date
darrelljs
Immortal
I think FFH is wonderfully unbalanced. Its what makes the game fun and fresh for me; getting a random civ and figuring out what goodies it has that I can exploit. I usually pick the same civ a few times until I've really got the Timmy in me satsified, then roll another random leader. Its such a change from BtS, where really everything is pretty much the same after a few dozen games (unless you participate in variants a la Realms Beyond).
Darrell
Darrell
Vladesch
Warlord
Vampire paladins with mithril weapons.
abculatter2
Warlord
- Joined
- May 23, 2008
- Messages
- 152
I think the "Play Now" function is overpowered, as is "Custom Game". The AI just can't handle them
I agree! I think these features should be taken out or nerfed.
abculatter2
Warlord
- Joined
- May 23, 2008
- Messages
- 152
And this thread is now close to overpowered spamming.
if you aren't carefull it might get nerfed by the admins.
And now back to topic:
While not everything is balanced I don't consider anything totaly gamebreaking (at least for single player, I haven't played multi yet).
Also some of the overpowered things ecofarm listed are only available for one race/ certain settings.
For example spellstaff & twincast: only grigori have a realistic chance 4 archmages + 4 liches with it. So the question is: Are grigori the only playable, viable race? I don't think so.
Maybe archmage heroes are the "best" use, but I don't think immortals or knights are "useless" and to be ignored completly.
if you aren't carefull it might get nerfed by the admins.
And now back to topic:
While not everything is balanced I don't consider anything totaly gamebreaking (at least for single player, I haven't played multi yet).
Also some of the overpowered things ecofarm listed are only available for one race/ certain settings.
For example spellstaff & twincast: only grigori have a realistic chance 4 archmages + 4 liches with it. So the question is: Are grigori the only playable, viable race? I don't think so.
Maybe archmage heroes are the "best" use, but I don't think immortals or knights are "useless" and to be ignored completly.
onedreamer
Dragon
this is a list of powerful features, not of overpowered features.
Yup a accurate assessment. If your playing the AI, just about any tactic can be overpowered.
cabbagemeister
Please wait...
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2008
- Messages
- 517
The great thing about these "overpowered" strats is that most of them are mutually exclusive, meaning that you have to choose between many amazing and very viable options. Choice is fun! I enjoy this setup much better than in "balanced" Vanilla BTS, in which no strats are amazing and only a few are viable. Of course, this comes from an SP player who has never had to face a human using one of these strats....
Blackmantle
King
besides my list of:
1) Warriors especially with copper weapons or even without (could use some more hammers to build like +5 or +10 with scouts keeping their cost)
Anyone doubting that warriors are one of the most overpowered parts of the game: take a peak at the thread about the ljosalfar survival challenge (depicting that axemen are not worth it in direct comparison). Its also viable for almost any civ.
But maybe at that part of the game its fine and perhaps it will indeed be "fixed" if the AI is impoved further. So a direct nerf might not be the best path.
2) Power of stack busters in general at least whitin the limits these spells have now including tsunami (and thats very much arguable but i for one think they are.). But thats not by a big margin imo. Certainly not as serious as Warriors.
I don't know anything else which is in the realm of really problematic overpoweredness which makes other options in the same field nonviable.
Edit important addition: Apart from that AI nonability to cope with FFH 2 might be the most serious problem to balance anyways and if improved further might very well make many of the existing balancing issues moot.
I rather think that there is a bigger problem (apart from AI improvements) with things beeing underpowered or uninteresting right now like:
narrow gameplay for grigori (with councils missing mostly among other things, Archmages / Luonotars or early Warrior / Scout heroes (and early upgrades of them) are a bit few to make them really intersting and fun to play)
Elhoim lacking the spiritual trait or something else to make them on par with others,
Doviello in their current form (i guess thats the civ that will change with 0.33),
mercantilism civic and compassion line civics (perhaps a small boost for aristocracy might be in order as well),
overpricedness of archery line (especially boyers and accuracy, also very bland units and an economically uninteresting tree) and high-end melee techs (beyond mithril weapons).
One of the ways to improve gameplay imo whould be to balance the crass difference in value of techs / improvements of the early game (like allowing chopping / cottages and other things earlier with some considerable drawbacks / without nerfing the existing options. Like discussed with some rather interesting ideas in another thread)
Those options are not really overpowered but early game whould still improve with earlier acess to some of those.
And while i have no real problem with reading people complaining about features beeing to powerful in itself, i do dislike the attitude of proclaming something without even remotely backing it up with anything just because of some undefined gut-feeling or because nothing else of simmilar power is known to some rather new FFH2 players which lack much experience with the mod as a whole. (Thats far from the rule but it still seems often enough to be very noticable.)
And seconding jumping on a wagon just for the sake of agreeing without putting any effort as to why or adding any insight into the matter.
In so far i agree with the op that this conclusion is jumped upon far to haphazardly and with so much vigor if placed elsewhere it whould greathly improve the mod (much more then adressing some of the rather minor balance issues which are left.).
If for example said posters whould instead focus on making suggestions for AI-improvements or events FFH 2 might improve way faster and more substantially.
And while the team has done a terrific job on not heeding any call to nerf here and nerf there / following their own plan / guidlines sometimes those inquiries lead to sad results
(like making Grigori a rather uninteresting if not weak civ or nerfing slave trade to a point where it becomes barely useful.)
And even if those things are indeed nerfed over the top the calls to nerf them even further just don't die (like seen with slave trade.). So perhaps cut it completely? Because its power is over the top by its mere existence? I can't really see a basis for that.
There seem to be quite some players around here which actually seem to be fond of tendious chores which make the game more of a task / less fun and artificially draw things to unessecary length (like seen with critics about the nexus and its unrivaled speeding up of movement / guild of the nine with mountains of gold at hand which are very nice options to speed up gameplay at a point where its not as much of a question wether winning will be accomplished. But not so much unbalancing as just rounding up a game fast. There should be options like these. Since a won game is a won game.
And not everyone likes to end games prematurely or waiting until 100 Units are build in the usual way or moved around to their destination manually.)
Often i think thats down to many players (especially new ones) not realizing that balance is not the top priority with FFH2 design as much as are replayability, outstanding flavor and fun gameplay which are much more of a focus (and FFH2 is all the better for it. Kudos to the team. Again.).
Or because players think that most of the features are already finished because the game plays so very well they can't imagine it can still become much better featurewise (which is a big testament to the quality of FFH 2). The game is not finished. Wait and see + enjoy.
1) Warriors especially with copper weapons or even without (could use some more hammers to build like +5 or +10 with scouts keeping their cost)
Anyone doubting that warriors are one of the most overpowered parts of the game: take a peak at the thread about the ljosalfar survival challenge (depicting that axemen are not worth it in direct comparison). Its also viable for almost any civ.
But maybe at that part of the game its fine and perhaps it will indeed be "fixed" if the AI is impoved further. So a direct nerf might not be the best path.
2) Power of stack busters in general at least whitin the limits these spells have now including tsunami (and thats very much arguable but i for one think they are.). But thats not by a big margin imo. Certainly not as serious as Warriors.
I don't know anything else which is in the realm of really problematic overpoweredness which makes other options in the same field nonviable.
Edit important addition: Apart from that AI nonability to cope with FFH 2 might be the most serious problem to balance anyways and if improved further might very well make many of the existing balancing issues moot.
I rather think that there is a bigger problem (apart from AI improvements) with things beeing underpowered or uninteresting right now like:
narrow gameplay for grigori (with councils missing mostly among other things, Archmages / Luonotars or early Warrior / Scout heroes (and early upgrades of them) are a bit few to make them really intersting and fun to play)
Elhoim lacking the spiritual trait or something else to make them on par with others,
Doviello in their current form (i guess thats the civ that will change with 0.33
),mercantilism civic and compassion line civics (perhaps a small boost for aristocracy might be in order as well),
overpricedness of archery line (especially boyers and accuracy, also very bland units and an economically uninteresting tree) and high-end melee techs (beyond mithril weapons).
One of the ways to improve gameplay imo whould be to balance the crass difference in value of techs / improvements of the early game (like allowing chopping / cottages and other things earlier with some considerable drawbacks / without nerfing the existing options. Like discussed with some rather interesting ideas in another thread)
Those options are not really overpowered but early game whould still improve with earlier acess to some of those.
And while i have no real problem with reading people complaining about features beeing to powerful in itself, i do dislike the attitude of proclaming something without even remotely backing it up with anything just because of some undefined gut-feeling or because nothing else of simmilar power is known to some rather new FFH2 players which lack much experience with the mod as a whole. (Thats far from the rule but it still seems often enough to be very noticable.)
And seconding jumping on a wagon just for the sake of agreeing without putting any effort as to why or adding any insight into the matter.
In so far i agree with the op that this conclusion is jumped upon far to haphazardly and with so much vigor if placed elsewhere it whould greathly improve the mod (much more then adressing some of the rather minor balance issues which are left.).
If for example said posters whould instead focus on making suggestions for AI-improvements or events FFH 2 might improve way faster and more substantially.
And while the team has done a terrific job on not heeding any call to nerf here and nerf there / following their own plan / guidlines sometimes those inquiries lead to sad results
(like making Grigori a rather uninteresting if not weak civ or nerfing slave trade to a point where it becomes barely useful.)
And even if those things are indeed nerfed over the top the calls to nerf them even further just don't die (like seen with slave trade.). So perhaps cut it completely? Because its power is over the top by its mere existence? I can't really see a basis for that.
There seem to be quite some players around here which actually seem to be fond of tendious chores which make the game more of a task / less fun and artificially draw things to unessecary length (like seen with critics about the nexus and its unrivaled speeding up of movement / guild of the nine with mountains of gold at hand which are very nice options to speed up gameplay at a point where its not as much of a question wether winning will be accomplished. But not so much unbalancing as just rounding up a game fast. There should be options like these. Since a won game is a won game.
And not everyone likes to end games prematurely or waiting until 100 Units are build in the usual way or moved around to their destination manually.)
Often i think thats down to many players (especially new ones) not realizing that balance is not the top priority with FFH2 design as much as are replayability, outstanding flavor and fun gameplay which are much more of a focus (and FFH2 is all the better for it.
Kudos to the team. Again.). Or because players think that most of the features are already finished because the game plays so very well they can't imagine it can still become much better featurewise (which is a big testament to the quality of FFH 2). The game is not finished. Wait and see + enjoy.
Whats funny is the list he wrote missed one that was on the forums just recently and didnt even cover the one I messed with a couple days ago.
If there are a dozen or so "overpowered" tactics and are mutually exclusive, then they cant be too "overpowered".
If there are a dozen or so "overpowered" tactics and are mutually exclusive, then they cant be too "overpowered".
Blackmantle
King
Well ecofarm at least backs up his points in a solid depth (and can add more if asked why as for example with twincast + spellstaff + wonder) + has tested alot. Which makes it possible to argue on some basis and to disagree instead of just tossing statements around and refusing to argue it / seeing any point.
And he is not one of the players massively pressing the point on moot things and regardless of discussion. (with most of the things on said list beeing really powerful. If arguable that they are fine in their power. Or with them beeing clear to not beeing adressed like issues with advanced start.)
He just points most things out as beeing very powerful. I don't think he whould have a big problems with most of the things above staying as they are since they are also fun to him i belive. (besides stack busters like tsunami).
So you won't hear him consistently calling them to be nerfed no matter what. (Meteor Swarm was a real problem for the game / magic system. Few people whould argue that i belive.)
Also he makes suggestions on ways to fix issues if they need to be adressed so thats not just negative criticism.
A post which does yield insight into a topic + makes suggestions won't harm the mod at least imo.
Edit: Plus most importantly he (unlike many other posters calling for nerfs left and right) views FFH2 from a (mostly competitive) multiplayer standpoint where balance is much more important than in singleplayer. So he has some sort of point regarding that aspect. That multiplayer is not the main focus of FFH2 design is known. That doesn't make it completely unimportant though.
And he is not one of the players massively pressing the point on moot things and regardless of discussion. (with most of the things on said list beeing really powerful. If arguable that they are fine in their power. Or with them beeing clear to not beeing adressed like issues with advanced start.)
He just points most things out as beeing very powerful. I don't think he whould have a big problems with most of the things above staying as they are since they are also fun to him i belive. (besides stack busters like tsunami).
So you won't hear him consistently calling them to be nerfed no matter what. (Meteor Swarm was a real problem for the game / magic system. Few people whould argue that i belive.)
Also he makes suggestions on ways to fix issues if they need to be adressed so thats not just negative criticism.
A post which does yield insight into a topic + makes suggestions won't harm the mod at least imo.
Edit: Plus most importantly he (unlike many other posters calling for nerfs left and right) views FFH2 from a (mostly competitive) multiplayer standpoint where balance is much more important than in singleplayer. So he has some sort of point regarding that aspect. That multiplayer is not the main focus of FFH2 design is known. That doesn't make it completely unimportant though.
You can easily surpass 30 very early on and build far more effective cities while earning more money and hammers and GPP with a carefully managed specialist economy. Cabins are nothing but potential raider targets that are not necessary for elves running GoN, and I don't build them unless there is no way to farm, and I get along just fine.
The only instance in which I could see cottage spam as being equal to or better than arista-farms is if you're planning on running Liberty for a culture victory. Other than that, I really don't see what the big deal is.
marioflag
History Addict
Your GPP farm strategy should be more powerful with small empires though i'm not so sure if it is better when you have large empires, considering that i was using City States and Aristocracy would prevent you from adopting it.
In any case it shows how moch powerful is the synergy between Ljosalfar and Guardian of Nature.
Right, they're intentionally designed that way. Elves + Forests + Guardian is about as powerful in peacemongering as Khazad + Arte + Hills + overflowing vaults is for waging war.
It's not the only way to go, though. I played an Octopus Overlords elf game once that was really successful. Svarts have Esus by default. Ljos start with life mana, so someone with more patience at managing Hell Terrain than me could possibly pull off Ashen Veil. You should try playing against what you precieve to be uniquely powerful in order to get a taste of what else is out there.
Flesh Golems are fairly overpowered =) You just have to particular what you feed them.
Hawk/Parrot/Whatever (add: Flying)
Mutate a bunch of low level warriors to get light and heavy (you will benefit from the move range but not be penalized by heavy's weight because you are flying)
also blitz, commando, amphibious, attack 1, attack 2. train them with various specialties (vs melee, archer, demon, undead, disciple)
then feed him a bronze, iron and mithril working.
Use your adepts to feed him Combat 5. Use a couple mounted guys to feed him movement 2 (or just have the summoner have extension II) and withdrawal III
Oh yeah it didn't hurt that my golem could do my focused magic school hehe.
My golem that started as a 6muscle ended up having 99.9% odds to kill avatar of wrath hehe. and ended up moving 5 squares at at time
You can also use a beastmaster to capture Acheron then somehow get him killed and make him into a 19 strength flesh golem by way of the cauldron.
but pretty much any strat will pwn the AI as the AI is the one thing I would try to improve on for this mod as it stands right now.
Hawk/Parrot/Whatever (add: Flying)
Mutate a bunch of low level warriors to get light and heavy (you will benefit from the move range but not be penalized by heavy's weight because you are flying)
also blitz, commando, amphibious, attack 1, attack 2. train them with various specialties (vs melee, archer, demon, undead, disciple)
then feed him a bronze, iron and mithril working.
Use your adepts to feed him Combat 5. Use a couple mounted guys to feed him movement 2 (or just have the summoner have extension II) and withdrawal III
Oh yeah it didn't hurt that my golem could do my focused magic school hehe.
My golem that started as a 6muscle ended up having 99.9% odds to kill avatar of wrath hehe. and ended up moving 5 squares at at time
You can also use a beastmaster to capture Acheron then somehow get him killed and make him into a 19 strength flesh golem by way of the cauldron.
but pretty much any strat will pwn the AI as the AI is the one thing I would try to improve on for this mod as it stands right now.
Ecofarm
Deity
Svart -> cottages -> hammers -> commerce -> domination and mists -> get any tech and cash rush any building pretty much instantly (and while crippling your target without DoW).
Sometimes I deviate to Empy to grab Chalid and use him recklessly. When he dies (1st or second war), I go back to Guardian and get Kithra or/and Yvain. Then off to Beastmasters. For details on Svart strat, see "Most Powerful Strat" in FFH2 Strategy forum.
I can understand the specialist thing working too. I've seen what 15 sages in a city looks like.
My favorites are: Svart (assassins*, archmages), Balseraph (Druids) and Grigori (archmages**). Personal taste = recon and arcane. I guess Bals is my most favorite (especially since I get 2 druids with Crown now***), but it is a real pain of a strat. I like environmentalism (FoL) and radicalism (aka insanity?).
* Is alazkan getting nerfed, he's really nutz.
** Chaos 3, only when twin and spell (because of base multiplier of 3-5 casts), is silly. 1 luon (defense) and 1 grig chaos twin staff can kill any AI civ at any stage in the game - just the two of them.
*** I like disiple units keeping spells. I hope that is not changed.
ps. I don't think things need to be balanced. For PvP, players can adjust settings to have balance (same thing with advanced start - noone is forcing anyone to play luch advanced or keep all hammers and move them to cap). What I call OP is stuff that single-handedly and flat-out ends SP (at immortal difficulty) or MP games. I also call that stuff cheater; that was just a brief list off the top. Of course, when I play svart, I'm cottaging up! (and I might try Ljo SE)
pps. This thread is kinda OP.
Sometimes I deviate to Empy to grab Chalid and use him recklessly. When he dies (1st or second war), I go back to Guardian and get Kithra or/and Yvain. Then off to Beastmasters. For details on Svart strat, see "Most Powerful Strat" in FFH2 Strategy forum.
I can understand the specialist thing working too. I've seen what 15 sages in a city looks like.
My favorites are: Svart (assassins*, archmages), Balseraph (Druids) and Grigori (archmages**). Personal taste = recon and arcane. I guess Bals is my most favorite (especially since I get 2 druids with Crown now***), but it is a real pain of a strat. I like environmentalism (FoL) and radicalism (aka insanity?).
* Is alazkan getting nerfed, he's really nutz.
** Chaos 3, only when twin and spell (because of base multiplier of 3-5 casts), is silly. 1 luon (defense) and 1 grig chaos twin staff can kill any AI civ at any stage in the game - just the two of them.
*** I like disiple units keeping spells. I hope that is not changed.
ps. I don't think things need to be balanced. For PvP, players can adjust settings to have balance (same thing with advanced start - noone is forcing anyone to play luch advanced or keep all hammers and move them to cap). What I call OP is stuff that single-handedly and flat-out ends SP (at immortal difficulty) or MP games. I also call that stuff cheater; that was just a brief list off the top. Of course, when I play svart, I'm cottaging up! (and I might try Ljo SE)
pps. This thread is kinda OP.
Nikis-Knight
Deity
domination doesn't declare war? That can't be intended...
Similar threads
- Locked
- Poll
