P666-02 Fix Another Trash Game
- Thread starter Cam_H
- Start date
I'm ten turns in and I'll try to get them finished early, but I want to make a much better effort than the last turnset which I rushed on Friday night. It's not good to submit a save that doesn't make use of all the good advice that has been offered in this thread.
mice said:I'm ten turns in and I'll try to get them finished early, but I want to make a much better effort than the last turnset which I rushed on Friday night. It's not good to submit a save that doesn't make use of all the good advice that has been offered in this thread.
right!
If you need the time, you have it.
Last week, i had to rush it somehow in the middle of the night, this week, i have played on sunday, with open eyes.
I play better in my sleep, it seems
pigswill
fly (one day)
Mice; you've got a few days yet, so there's no rush. (Edit: Crossed post with Mice)
As already posted this round was about peaceful epansion and city specialisation, basically trying to catch up with Roosevelt.
Edit: Now we're just waiting for Cabert and Cam_H to post their saves (and hopefully spoilers).
As already posted this round was about peaceful epansion and city specialisation, basically trying to catch up with Roosevelt.
Spoiler :
Edit: Now we're just waiting for Cabert and Cam_H to post their saves (and hopefully spoilers).
pigswill said:
will do tonight, and i'll be checking the saves tomorrow.
Mice : yes, basically trading a lumbermill for a workshop when building the last parts is a total gain.
And the casings can be built slowly, since there are so many other parts to build, so no need to use the top production cities for those.
Better to go for some useful wonders (SoL is a really good one, 3 gorges dam also and space elevator may be the best, Eiffel tower is cool too, although not really needed, same for broadway, rock'n'roll, and hollywood cool but not needed).
so here is my save
No more spoiler needed, since everyone has finished this round.
I didn't note much of my game, but went this way :
- tech beeline towards the Internet = early laboratories
- cottaged all around banana split, watermilled all i could everywhere else
- railroaded all mines and lumbermills
- built a lot of units to deter and maybe attack FdR if needed
the rest is quite similar to what everyone did = no war except the last persian city, wonder and infra building.
What i didn't do was trading away communism.
It was a monopoly tech so kremlin was easy to get without much pression.
After that it's easy to buy all factories needed
I managed to build some world wonders :
- Kremlin (Universal suffrage's friend : beware, there is a lot of money left and the Kremlin obsoletes with fiber optics)
- Statue of liberty
- Rock'n'Roll
- Eiffel tower in 2
- apollo program is under way (in 3)
and loads of cities are ready to start on thrusters, casings, ...
I kept a GP for a golden age (another great person is due soon), just in time for happy building.
here a pic to show how I stand:
No more spoiler needed, since everyone has finished this round.
I didn't note much of my game, but went this way :
- tech beeline towards the Internet = early laboratories
- cottaged all around banana split, watermilled all i could everywhere else
- railroaded all mines and lumbermills
- built a lot of units to deter and maybe attack FdR if needed
the rest is quite similar to what everyone did = no war except the last persian city, wonder and infra building.
What i didn't do was trading away communism.
It was a monopoly tech so kremlin was easy to get without much pression.
After that it's easy to buy all factories needed
I managed to build some world wonders :
- Kremlin (Universal suffrage's friend : beware, there is a lot of money left and the Kremlin obsoletes with fiber optics)
- Statue of liberty
- Rock'n'Roll
- Eiffel tower in 2
- apollo program is under way (in 3)
and loads of cities are ready to start on thrusters, casings, ...
I kept a GP for a golden age (another great person is due soon), just in time for happy building.
here a pic to show how I stand:
Sorry to keep you waiting - it will not be until Thursday that I can post my save.
I'm a few turns (four iirc) from Robotics and have built Broadway, The Kremlin, Wall Street, The Globe Theatre, and the Apollo Program. I have a Defensive Pact with Roosevelt (a huge relief when that one became available!), and had one with Mansa for most of the round but he cancelled it towards the end. I've got a Great Prophet in waiting for a Golden Age should another type of Great Person appear next. I have a few SS Casings being built.
Despite my inclination towards Organised Religion, I pressed on with Free Religion that hopefully kept me a turn or two in front of Gandhi and Mansa in the technology race.
I think we've noted it several times before, but increasing the population of cities was important here, as were trades with 'lesser' empires such as India and Mali. Egypt provided no technology trade opportunities for me this round. Clearly the Aztec-American defensive pact made my worries about invasion or the need to resort to weapons of mass destruction largely disappear ... or we're going to get backstabbed in the worst kind of way!
I'm a few turns (four iirc) from Robotics and have built Broadway, The Kremlin, Wall Street, The Globe Theatre, and the Apollo Program. I have a Defensive Pact with Roosevelt (a huge relief when that one became available!), and had one with Mansa for most of the round but he cancelled it towards the end. I've got a Great Prophet in waiting for a Golden Age should another type of Great Person appear next. I have a few SS Casings being built.
Despite my inclination towards Organised Religion, I pressed on with Free Religion that hopefully kept me a turn or two in front of Gandhi and Mansa in the technology race.
I think we've noted it several times before, but increasing the population of cities was important here, as were trades with 'lesser' empires such as India and Mali. Egypt provided no technology trade opportunities for me this round. Clearly the Aztec-American defensive pact made my worries about invasion or the need to resort to weapons of mass destruction largely disappear ... or we're going to get backstabbed in the worst kind of way!
Cam_H said:Sorry to keep you waiting - it will not be until Thursday that I can post my save.
I'm a few turns (four iirc) from Robotics and have built Broadway, The Kremlin, Wall Street, The Globe Theatre, and the Apollo Program. I have a Defensive Pact with Roosevelt (a huge relief when that one became available!), and had one with Mansa for most of the round but he cancelled it towards the end. I've got a Great Prophet in waiting for a Golden Age should another type of Great Person appear next. I have a few SS Casings built.
Despite my inclination towards Organised Religion, I pressed on with Free Religion that hopefully kept me a turn or two in front of Gandhi and Mansa in the technology race.
I think we've noted it several times before, but increasing the population of cities was important here, as were trades with 'lesser' empires such as India and Mali. Egypt provided no technology trade opportunities for me this round. Clearly the Aztec-American defensive pact made my worries about invasion or the need to resort to weapons of mass destruction largely disappear ... or we're going to get backstabbed in the worst kind of way!
being ony a few turns away from robotics + having apollo program done makes it clear this isn't a trash game. I'll take a look at other games and hope there is another game without the apollo
^ Ooops ... I also built Scotland Yard!
Unlike yourself however, I've invested practically zero into improving our military. I figured that once Mechanical Infantry were available, I could start popping a few of them from the Heroic Epic city and start improving that 'soldiers' ranking.
I'm 99% sure that this will nonetheless end in a peaceful space race - I just can't see any of the remaining AI tribes going from 'Pleased' to unprovoked war. If it weren't for the Defensive Pact, things would be a lot different.
Cabert - have you not hooked up your oil?
Unlike yourself however, I've invested practically zero into improving our military. I figured that once Mechanical Infantry were available, I could start popping a few of them from the Heroic Epic city and start improving that 'soldiers' ranking.
I'm 99% sure that this will nonetheless end in a peaceful space race - I just can't see any of the remaining AI tribes going from 'Pleased' to unprovoked war. If it weren't for the Defensive Pact, things would be a lot different.
Cabert - have you not hooked up your oil?
cabert said:no need for oil
I agree that there's no need for oil, although I wouldn't mind the capacity to dial up a Tank or two if need be. It's probably indicative that you were more productive with your Workers than I was in terms of late-game landscaping, as I tended to do 'the waterwheel thing', but I'm sure the extent of other changes could have been more far reaching. The last couple of turns saw my Workers wandering around railroading tiles that really didn't need railroading.
'My' Persepolis for instance is a bit of a disaster area in terms of
because I've left the farms, and have a number of pretty useless 'citizen specialists' on my hands ... just one of my 
moves - or 'non-moves'.cabert said:i fear i'm qualifying as trash game
Do we need to re-title the thread?
You're a smidgeon off Fibre (Fiber) Optics - it can't be that bad!My game should be posted within 12 hours, but I hope everyone's taken the opportunity to check out each other's submissions in the meantime.
Next round ... victory! 
Cam_H said:
really?
I think most of the western part needs improving, and i'm far from done!
But railroading is never wasted (sending units from one side to the other in no time is great!).
Didn't you buy the buildings to have better specialists?'My' Persepolis for instance is a bit of a disaster area in terms of
True, i'd have fiber optics just at the same time as iron wheat finishes the apollo program = it would start on the internet straight away, and with copper it would be only a few turns (less than 10 probably). All other cities around could buy the laboratories and factories required in the few turns before apollo is done, and immediately start on casings, thrusters and cockpit.Do we need to re-title the thread?
I would tech towards ecology and genetics while building the internet, so I could build life support and stasis chamber before the AI have that tech, letting them tech to robotics (i know they will
)My game should be posted within 12 hours, but I hope everyone's taken the opportunity to check out each other's submissions in the meantime.
would you coordinate the vote (not that i want to vote before seeing the last save, but i will probably be able to vote a few minutes after seeing your game) ?
pigswill
fly (one day)
Checking out other saves and reading posts I still have a lot to learn; should have built Globe in Persepolis; still not growing my cities enough; didn't build many wonders; may/may not be the trash game of the round but clearly sub-optimal.
One thing I've noticed in this and other games is that I can play a reasonable game up to about 1000ad then I start floundering; my tactics become weaker and the balance between expansion/development/research etc become poor. Nice to know I'm still learning.
One thing I've noticed in this and other games is that I can play a reasonable game up to about 1000ad then I start floundering; my tactics become weaker and the balance between expansion/development/research etc become poor. Nice to know I'm still learning.
pigswill said:
I had a quick glance at your game, and don't think you qualify as trash game.
But your observation is very interesting.
I'm a bit of a noob for a space win, so i'm not trying to say what's right and wrong for it.
But here are some facts that I took into consideration :
- you cannot poprush or $rush space parts
- you need very advanced tech to build the most expansive parts
- the AI won't trade "space" techs (it's the "we'd rather win" effect)
- a railroaded lumbermill has the same output as a workshop under SP
- you can chop wood for space parts
- you can acquire all space techs (except the unknown ones
) through the Internet, provided there are 2 fast techers- you can $rush laboratories and factories
- you can have many engineer specialists in the IW city
- you can $rush wonders
- it's useless to have only some spaceship parts done, you need all of them.
So my goal was to
- gain as many useful wonders as possible in the high hammers cities
- while teching as fast as possible towards "internet" tech (which also is a spaceship part tech, so no gamble here),
- while growing cities as big as possible because you can use those population points to build the space parts faster, and
- leaving as many forests as possible for later use. I still chopped around Ironwheat because watermills give more food than lumbermills under SP.
National wonders such as globe theater can be $rushed, so if there is a possible good use, go for it. Persepolis could grow so fast because of so many farms around. Some of those farms can become watermills or workshops if you have idle workers. If you have a high number of specialists there, temples allow priests, factory allows engineers = production.
About the after 1000AD weaker tactics, it's mainly because the games divert more and more, so an early game looks very much like another early game whereas late games are all very different.
So we all have weaker late game tactics.
What I see as weak is the loss of focus on victory condition.
Bad use of wall street here would be a big loss, because it would require to run higher on the money slider.
But bad use of globe isn't a big deal as long as you don't need the culture slider to correct this
. So at worst, you lose a few pop points in persepolis or banana split (another good candidate for the globe), but who cares?Some suboptimal moves I made :
- worker usage in railroading lesser cities before cottaging banana split and corny gems.
- late trade of techs (going for the internet, i should have helped the lesser techers to go catch up on FdR, but I didn't think of it
)- building so many units before building a temple in T4 (now it's unhappy)
- not improving the western cities enough
Do those make my game trashy? Not in my opinion.
I have a very coherent plan for the space parts, and the rest is just for the fun.
I will collect the votes.
Report ...
Round Objectives:
Clearly with America escalating on the Power Chart the choice was going to boil down to ‘get along’ and try to win with a good old fashioned space race, or consider a myriad of ‘Plan Bs’ … b-line to The Manhattan Project and bomb America out of existence, b-line to The Internet and spend 80% of our efforts on military capacity and spies while Mansa and Gandhi played catch-up for us tech-wise, etc.
The group’s pre-round talk recommended “Wipe out Persia, no more war!” … who was I to disagree?
I reviewed the cities and rearranged some tiles, generally to emphasise food, and on occasions I changed the build queues with a view to accommodating more happiness through Temples.
Opening Turns
I wiped out Persia, but not without a dash of “Cam’s luck” … I lost a 96.1%-er.
The clouds parted, and a booming voice from above spoke to me … “Roosevelt is prepared to enter a Defensive Pact with you!”
Joy! Joy! Joy!
We are left with arguably the four tribes that I would say are least likely to start an unprovoked war (others may disagree), and the spookiest one of them all is now our ally. Former fears of American SoDs of Navy Seals, Artillery, and Tanks smashing our meek and meagre defences are all but allayed.
[Edit] I do feel awkward on this point ... in the pre-round dialogue I felt it was important to stack units in cities close to the southern border - the defensive pact with Roosevelt completely changed this plan for me, allowing far more developmental options. My empire has now become the weakling, but I'm banking on this pact lasting throughout. Looking at the other games some have indeed built semi-respectable city defenses possibly at the cost of more growth-oriented options, and I hope that people don't feel that I've misled them.
[/Edit]
The first of the trades with the ‘lesser tribes’ in 1665;
OK … at this point I feel as though maybe some observers might think that I’ve been a touch hypocritical in that for much of the game Cabert and I have been in some gamers’ philosophical blood-match over whether to trade or not to trade freely, with ‘yours truly’ advocating a position of conservatism on trade opportunities, but now tech’s begin flying ‘left, right, and centre’.
Essentially I see only one realistic competitor … America. If I can continue to trade technologies that either Roosevelt already has, or tech’s that are unrelated to completing the space ship, I should be fine. Later on however I’ll take a punt in trading a technology that should be highly sought after in Computers for another expensive and highly sought after technology in Plastics – this one I needed to get me to Robotics, which is surprisingly not as high a priority for most AI tribes as I believe it warrants.
I hear another booming voice … “Mansa Musa is prepared to enter a Defensive Pact with you!”
Joy! Joy! Joy!
With Democracy secured, the civics go;
1675 - 1700:
I build The Kremlin. The Space Elevator is ‘buyable’ – so this will come in handy for that, however nice for finishing off buildings in our commerce sites too. This one was hard to pass up in 1700;
1700 – 1800:
I’m heading both towards Computers and Rocketry along the technology paths.
I pick up Electricity in 1730, and have the option of Artillery or Flight as prerequisites to Rocketry. Flight is a couple of turns longer to research, however neither Mali or India have it yet, so I figured it was up for trade, plus I would also get access to Airports with their +1
. In 1760;
Disappointingly, Mansa cancels our Defensive Pact in 1770. He’s still pleased with Montezuma the Feathered One however. Rocketry and then Radio are the next targets. I secure the former around 1775.
Almost by accident I pick up Broadway, however with Fur, Ivory, and Whales each becoming obsolete, a happiness resource was not unwelcome. Unfortunately I miss the Statue of Liberty to America, but collect a handy 894 gold for my efforts.
1800 – 1820:
I research Radio in 1800. Gandhi provides a useful trading opportunity in 1802 – arguably a little one-sided his way, but Industrialism is a desired technology;
Computers is now in my sights, and I self-research it in 1810. Ironwheat in the meantime has been assiduously working away at Apollo, and it comes in at 1812. I am still mindful of The Space Elevator, when Gandhi offers a real ‘win-win’ in 1814;
Roosevelt has been working away at his space ship, however he’s not as close to getting The Space Elevator, and has been distracted by Satellites and SS Thrusters.
Looking back:
I felt it was a fairly successful Round – many National Wonders were built, Computers and the Apollo Program were each secured, and not only did America not invade – but a Defensive Pact was signed. Furthermore, all inter-empire relations are more than amicable. Getting Flight (and Airports), and building Broadway were both ‘icing on the cake’.
[Edit] I've looked at the saves - some great work by all. A few different strategies adopted which also makes things interesting - isolationism vs. global citizen, The Internet vs. The Space Elevator, etc. [/Edit]
Report ...
Round Objectives:
- Survive!
- Apollo Program
- Wall Street
- Computers
- Workers amend tiles to make the most of Civic choices.
Clearly with America escalating on the Power Chart the choice was going to boil down to ‘get along’ and try to win with a good old fashioned space race, or consider a myriad of ‘Plan Bs’ … b-line to The Manhattan Project and bomb America out of existence, b-line to The Internet and spend 80% of our efforts on military capacity and spies while Mansa and Gandhi played catch-up for us tech-wise, etc.
The group’s pre-round talk recommended “Wipe out Persia, no more war!” … who was I to disagree?
I reviewed the cities and rearranged some tiles, generally to emphasise food, and on occasions I changed the build queues with a view to accommodating more happiness through Temples.
Opening Turns
I wiped out Persia, but not without a dash of “Cam’s luck” … I lost a 96.1%-er.
The clouds parted, and a booming voice from above spoke to me … “Roosevelt is prepared to enter a Defensive Pact with you!”
Joy! Joy! Joy!
We are left with arguably the four tribes that I would say are least likely to start an unprovoked war (others may disagree), and the spookiest one of them all is now our ally. Former fears of American SoDs of Navy Seals, Artillery, and Tanks smashing our meek and meagre defences are all but allayed.
[Edit] I do feel awkward on this point ... in the pre-round dialogue I felt it was important to stack units in cities close to the southern border - the defensive pact with Roosevelt completely changed this plan for me, allowing far more developmental options. My empire has now become the weakling, but I'm banking on this pact lasting throughout. Looking at the other games some have indeed built semi-respectable city defenses possibly at the cost of more growth-oriented options, and I hope that people don't feel that I've misled them.
[/Edit]The first of the trades with the ‘lesser tribes’ in 1665;
<Image Removed - Mansa offers Bio for Dem + Map>
OK … at this point I feel as though maybe some observers might think that I’ve been a touch hypocritical in that for much of the game Cabert and I have been in some gamers’ philosophical blood-match over whether to trade or not to trade freely, with ‘yours truly’ advocating a position of conservatism on trade opportunities, but now tech’s begin flying ‘left, right, and centre’.
Essentially I see only one realistic competitor … America. If I can continue to trade technologies that either Roosevelt already has, or tech’s that are unrelated to completing the space ship, I should be fine. Later on however I’ll take a punt in trading a technology that should be highly sought after in Computers for another expensive and highly sought after technology in Plastics – this one I needed to get me to Robotics, which is surprisingly not as high a priority for most AI tribes as I believe it warrants.
I hear another booming voice … “Mansa Musa is prepared to enter a Defensive Pact with you!”
Joy! Joy! Joy!
With Democracy secured, the civics go;
Universal Suffrage / Free Speech / Emancipation / State Property / Free Religion
1675 - 1700:
I build The Kremlin. The Space Elevator is ‘buyable’ – so this will come in handy for that, however nice for finishing off buildings in our commerce sites too. This one was hard to pass up in 1700;
<Image Removed - Mansa offers Phy + Combust + Map + 40
for Communism + Assembly Line>
for Communism + Assembly Line>1700 – 1800:
I’m heading both towards Computers and Rocketry along the technology paths.
I pick up Electricity in 1730, and have the option of Artillery or Flight as prerequisites to Rocketry. Flight is a couple of turns longer to research, however neither Mali or India have it yet, so I figured it was up for trade, plus I would also get access to Airports with their +1
. In 1760;<Image Removed - Mansa offers Artillery + Map + 150 for Flight>
for Flight>Disappointingly, Mansa cancels our Defensive Pact in 1770. He’s still pleased with Montezuma the Feathered One however. Rocketry and then Radio are the next targets. I secure the former around 1775.
Almost by accident I pick up Broadway, however with Fur, Ivory, and Whales each becoming obsolete, a happiness resource was not unwelcome. Unfortunately I miss the Statue of Liberty to America, but collect a handy 894 gold for my efforts.
1800 – 1820:
I research Radio in 1800. Gandhi provides a useful trading opportunity in 1802 – arguably a little one-sided his way, but Industrialism is a desired technology;
<Image Removed - Gandhi offers Ind + Map + 190 for Rocketry + Radio>
for Rocketry + Radio>Computers is now in my sights, and I self-research it in 1810. Ironwheat in the meantime has been assiduously working away at Apollo, and it comes in at 1812. I am still mindful of The Space Elevator, when Gandhi offers a real ‘win-win’ in 1814;
<Image Removed - Gandhi offers Plastics + Map + 20 for Computers>
for Computers>Roosevelt has been working away at his space ship, however he’s not as close to getting The Space Elevator, and has been distracted by Satellites and SS Thrusters.
Looking back:
I felt it was a fairly successful Round – many National Wonders were built, Computers and the Apollo Program were each secured, and not only did America not invade – but a Defensive Pact was signed. Furthermore, all inter-empire relations are more than amicable. Getting Flight (and Airports), and building Broadway were both ‘icing on the cake’.
[Edit] I've looked at the saves - some great work by all. A few different strategies adopted which also makes things interesting - isolationism vs. global citizen, The Internet vs. The Space Elevator, etc. [/Edit]
... but votes should be in within the next 18 hours (earlier would be better). Unfortunately I'm compelled to disregard votes submitted after this time. 
or 
in the upcoming round.OK, time's up!
For this next round we'll take VuDu's game where a lot of the terrain tweaks have been undertaken and we're set on a good technology course. I guess the lack of technology trading with lesser tribes held the development back more so than other games (I'm not so sure about the automated workers however).
As per my previous post, we're so close to the end that we'll play this one out to completion ... is a Nineteenth Century victory possible from this point? No submission deadlines here, just post when you're ready. Good luck!
For this next round we'll take VuDu's game where a lot of the terrain tweaks have been undertaken and we're set on a good technology course. I guess the lack of technology trading with lesser tribes held the development back more so than other games (I'm not so sure about the automated workers however).
As per my previous post, we're so close to the end that we'll play this one out to completion ... is a Nineteenth Century victory possible from this point? No submission deadlines here, just post when you're ready. Good luck!
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