Pacal Strategy

Carl5872

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Sep 3, 2008
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That calendar ability is throwing me a curve ball. Not sure how to use it effectively. The game Im playing, it seems like I am not able to generate ANY great people on my own since the GP from the UA keep bumping up the cost.

This makes me wonder what the best victory strategy is with them. Could it be that since you cant generate GP on your own you shouldnt bother to try to generate GP points and focus on domination, using the GP from the calendar as a supplement? After all the atatlist is a very nice early rush unit.

Or maybe since the pyramid focuses on religion, go down piety for a culture win through a strong religion.

Then again, the pyramid gives science, and that would have synergies with going down rationalism. Especially since I think rationalism is superior to piety with the G&K changes.

Any thoughts?
 
I also play as Pacal, and I've given up trying to go for GP via GP point generation. I think the only way to get the Great People you want are to purchase them with Faith. Seeing as how the Maya are a religiously oriented thread, you should have plenty of faith generation by the Industrial Era. The order of people you select from the Calendar bonus should also start with the Prophet to get the religion going, and the Scientist should be next to place an academy as soon as possible. From that point on its subjective to the individual game, but I usually take the Great Merchant early so that I can reap some early game growth by sending him to a Maritime CS.

I see Science as the best Maya victory route. The bonus 2 science from the Pyramid is a ridiculous science advantage at that point in the game. It's the reason I play as Maya, since I view Science as the most important asset in the game for any victory condition (even in a culture victory, your units have to be advanced enough to defend your cities). Therefore I always take Rationalism as soon as I hit Renaissance Era and don't waste policies on Piety.

I usually take Messenger of the Gods as my Pantheon (unless there's a terrain reason to take Stone Circles or Religious Idols) as this Pantheon boosts that early game science boost even further. For the Founder Belief, I will usually take Tithe/Church Property when available, but if there are a couple civs near me which have already founded rapidly spreading religions, Interfaith Dialogue is an obvious choice. Given that Maya should beeline Theology and therefore get the Mosque of Djenne, this can generate more faith bonus.
 
I think it's best to basically ignore GPP with the mayans, and focus on buying GP with faith and getting free ones from wonders & policies. You want to go wide because of their pyramid is so good, and this should lead to a very strong religion game, allowing you to purchase a few GP. Then basically go for all the free ones you can find...liberty, Hagia, PT, LT, etc...if all you get is free ones, there's no downside.

I think mayans are one civ who could benefit a lot from switching from peity to rationalism late in the game. use peity to increase your faith a lot in your wide empire...save it all up...then switch to rationalism near the end just to buy some scientists with all that faith you've saved. I also like taking order to buy a GE for hubble (among other benefits).
 
You can generate GPs with Mayans but it may not be worth it. Mayans advantage is that they do not need to use specialiast as much as the other civs because specialists greatest benifit should allways be the GPP which makes them ridiculus strong at low GPPN but weak then the GPPN gets high. Lets take a merchant in the information era. At that age a great merchant give you 1000 gold then doing a trade mission without commerence finisher. If our information age merchant can generate a merchant which can make a trade mission for 1000 gold before the game ends it becomes probably far more vaubel and allways more vaubel then if it couldn't. To se how much gold we get from GPP we divide 1000 by the GPPN which we set as 1000 which means that each GPP is worth 1 gold. Our merchant generates 2 gold which can be improved by buildings which improves gold generation of the city. Our merchant also generates 3 GPP which also can be improved by atleast 100% if you get the wonder and Sweden can get something like 310%. In worst chase our merchant generates a bit more then 5 gold per turn and in best case over 16 gold per turn which is incredibel good and can't basicly be matched by anything other then other specialists and think that this is the you do not have commerence finisher.

Mayans can not get the super specialists but I would probably try to get some by my cities because I can and they are still good for the cost even after all the specialists mayans gets which only is 4 that increase the city GPPN in cities.
 
I highly suggest NOT to focus on GP production with the Maya.
You can focus on anything else (i.e. science, culture, gold, etc...) and you will save yourself the time of building GP buildings while still getting a lot of GPs.

If you want to focus on GP production I would suggest to play Sweden or Egypt.
 
Mayans have the following advantages

The UB - Pyramid
-Replaces the Shrine

The Pyramid is extremely cheap and comes up before the Library. It provides +2:c5faith: and +2:c5science: which is +1:c5faith: over a normal shrine and a science bonus equal to 4 population. This serves as a great boost and can be reasonably be used to delay libraries and the NC for a while if going Tall or to skip it all together if going ICS.

The UU - Atlatlists
-Replaces Archer
-Available at Agriculture


This is basically a free Archery tech... the unit is cheaper than the Archer by 8:c5production: on Standard and allows you to dive straight for Theology for the Mayan UA without worrying about not having ranged to defend. While the Archery tech is cheap, the faster you hit Theology, the more GP you can get as the earlier turns are worth more years due to the extreme time compression.

The UA - Mayan Long Count

This UA is a blessing and a curse. It gives you a 'free' GP every B'ak'tun or 394.3 years. You can pick any GP however you can only pick each type once until all choice have been chosen then it starts all over again. In G&K 'free' GP now increase the normal GP counter meaning it will be almost impossible for cities to catchup and generate GP of their own, especially if you get Theology early. Therefore it is best to plan you game around how well you can optimize your free GPs.

Popular and effective choices are

  • Get an early Great Prophet to found/enhance a religion
  • An early Great Scientist to plant an Academy
  • An early GE to Rush a key Wonder. Especially effective on higher difficulties. Chain rushing Pisa->PT comes to mind
  • A free GA to supplement your culture or to launch a Golden Age. Golden Age would be more effective on a wider empire.
  • An early Great General to place an emergency Citadel or to lead your army should you avoid Honor and it's your first war.
  • An early Great Admiral to explore across oceans to meet new Civs/CS.
  • An early Great Merchant to grab a CS ally super early or settle to boost GPT.

Empire Strategies

ICS(8+ Cities)

Mayans are built for this. By synergizing Pyramids and Messenger of the Gods, each new city gives +6 to your base science (+2:c5science: from MotG, +2:c5science: from Pyramids, +1:c5science: from Pop, +1:c5science: from City)

To really get the most bang for your buck taking Ceremonial Burial as your Founder belief can alleviate 25-33% of your initial happiness issues per city. Pagodas will alleviate another 25-33% and give you more Faith, Culture and allow you to hit pop two without additional happiness investment due to the way local happiness is handled vs Empire happiness. Meritocracy will handle another 25-33% meaning on Huge maps you actually gain 0.2 Happiness per new city.

Social Policies
Liberty and Order and the right side of Commerce are going to be your best friends. Meritocracy is a key policy and later in the game, Order's opener will be a enormous boost to your empire as you should be toting around 20+ cities by that point. The entire right side of Commerce helps as -25% from rush buying, +2 Happiness from Luxuries and -33% road maintenance are nothing to scoff at.

If you have a lot of Cultured CS allies then dipping into Tradition and Honor for free Garrisons and Happiness can be worth it. If anything else having a million archers will bloat your army size despite them not being centralized.

Pros:
  • Very rapid early science gain
  • Atlatlists provide a cheap and effective defense
  • More effective on bigger maps (Large costs 2.4:c5unhappy: per city; Huge costs 1.8:c5unhappy: per city)
  • Extremely high :c5faith:per turn. At least +4 per city

Cons:
  • Until religion kicks in new cities are a huge drain on Happiness. Belong able to settle on Luxes helps.
  • Least effective on Standard and Smaller maps (Cost 3:c5unhappy: per city)
  • Meritocracy requires you to detour from rushing Theology for The Wheel. Not huge but it could cost you a GP or two in the end.
  • Pagodas require 200:c5faith: each at the start. Once they start popping, the next comes faster but the initial delay can be annoying.
  • On higher difficulties your religion choice may be stolen by the AI. ICS is not advised for Deity unless you are confident you can pull it off without these bonuses.


Small and Tall (1-4 cities)

Mayans also work well staying small. Between 4 cities you essentially get a free Academy(Babylon) without sacrificing a land tile or 4 specialists(Korea) without needing them to stop working. While this doesn't scale as well as the other two Civs, it still help tremendously in the early game though the UA still inhibits the success of GP intensive VCs (Science/Cultural). In my opinion, after rushing for Theology and optionally Education, war is the best option. If you push directly for the NC you can turn around and hit Machinery alarmingly quick, relying on Atlatlists to protect you while you Tech dive. Pushing through to Education still nabs you Pikemen which can do the job just as well. Nothing Scarier than a wall of Medic II, Cover II Pikemen which can eventually become Medic II, Cover II, March Helicopter Gunships :D

Social Policies
The 4 City Tradition Opener work perfectly well here. You can find that here

Another option is to go Honor first and hunt camps religiously before embarking into Tradition. With luck and some dedication you can greatly speed up your initial culture gain to make up for the delayed policy. This also gets your foot in the door for when you decide its time to spill blood. I recommend the left side first.


At this point my train of thought has broken and I'm not sure what else to say. Ill add more later and maybe even move this to it's own thread. Enjoy.
 
Nice post, S.K. Ren.

I totally agree with the ICS strategy for Maya. More cities means more pyramids and more science. Pick the +2 science from trade routes pantheon for ever more abuse.

You'll need religion to help your empire stay happy with asceticism and ceremonial burial. It should be easy with pyramids and the long count (I take the great prophet first).

I recently finished a game with Maya on immortal following this strategy. I was able to outtech the AI by medieval and was first to reach Renaissance.
 
ics are we going back to this again :( always hated ics

on the other hand i found useing the long count and religion i was able to "buy" plenty of Gp, wondering even if useing it as the main form of gp generation isnt the way most effective way to use Mayans and focus less on the standard way of generation them.
 
There is nothing wrong with ICS. Its a high risk, high reward strategy. If you can pull it off, great. If you can't then you just ed up your game. Rome, Egypt and Arabia also do very well at ICS. I mean if the AI can do it on Deity why can't we? (except we can't so we settle for Immortal :P)
 
Ill add more later and maybe even move this to it's own thread.

Questions that could be addressed regarding going wide include:

  • when to build libraries and whether to build NC
  • whether to build universities and more in the capital
  • whether to have a second production city
  • how to get the culture to fill out Order, part of Commerce, and (?) Rationalism opener
 
Well I had never really imagined ICS until I read this thread and decided to give it a go. I see its many strengths as long as you have the happiness and more importantly the restraining factors become simply space. I am on a huge map and have the bottom half of Africa covered in about 10 cities but Isabella and Sweden quite simply have all the rest of Africa. I am already pissing them off by "expanding too aggressively". The one solution I have seen so far is transition smoothly into a warmongering dude and exert my iron fist until I am happy with my footprint but by time I conquer both of them I will be A) getting penalties from being too expansive and b) getting penalties from being a warmonger. I'd stand a chance to be in a position all to familiar in risk where your in trouble from Europe invasion and Asian.

A few notes on the Long calendar. I too tend for the early prophet so u get your choice of perks before AI's have their way, and then I enjoy a scientist to get that +8 science going early. I am usually on time for the tower of pisa but rarely make it to Manchu Pichu and because you are city spaming you can get a good location near a mountain and have your great engineer ready and waiting for it. Manchu Pichu + ICS is pretty dirty.
 
Pacal is all about those little pyramids. Get three of those things going early and you will have more science and more faith than any other civ you might have chosen. Then use those to beline Theology and start the long counts. You dont have to bother with archery since you effectively had it on turn 1. I'm playing Pacal rigth now and going for the 2012 Apocalypse Now achievement. I also did Holy Father and Last Crusade in the same game.
 
The Maya are also pretty good for an early Atlatl rush. When an AI civ close to your borders decides to rush you with his warriors, destroy all his warriors then counter-rush with your atlatls and a few warriors to take his cities before he can rebuild his army. Atlatlists are really spammable so you can easily overwhelm the defenses of a city once all the AI's units are gone.
 
Questions that could be addressed regarding going wide include:

  • when to build libraries and whether to build NC
  • whether to build universities and more in the capital
  • whether to have a second production city
  • how to get the culture to fill out Order, part of Commerce, and (?) Rationalism opener

I may try a game with initial 2 cities and a NC, beeline Theology and hard build HS. After that ICS crazy+trading post spam. 2nd city can be 4 pop production cities dedicated for settler while capital can keep growing. I will go 2 policy into rationalism for the +1 beaker from trading post. The rest of the SP goes to 1 order and 1 Commerce for great people purhase. The GE from calendar count may be used to rush MP for enhanced trade route. GE from liberty finisher may rush Lovre. Possibly a quick diplomatic win in this case with massive cash deposit. Only capital builds food and science. The rest of the cities follows pyramid, monument - money buildings - units. If religion competition is tight, choose GP as the first calendar Great people to ensure the happiness beliefs are taken. Key tech to beeline are Phylosophy, Theology, currency, banking, Lovre (forgot which) then to UN
 
Questions that could be addressed regarding going wide include:

  • when to build libraries and whether to build NC
  • whether to build universities and more in the capital
  • whether to have a second production city
  • how to get the culture to fill out Order, part of Commerce, and (?) Rationalism opener

Depends

Domination
Don't build Libraries, in fact skip Education. Get Lux techs and go straight for Machinery and win. Grab a Horseman for the capture.

Science
Keep your empire at most 16 cities. Beyond that you won't clear Rationalism fast enough.
You can go ahead and build Libraries/Universities in all your cities though the NC will still be greatly delayed. Use Trades and Mercantile CS to grow your empire.

Diplo
Doesn't really matter, Focus on hoarding GP and building your cities up.

Culture
Only ever try on a Huge map but its not really a smart thing to go for :P
 
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